# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/501 "2012-06-19T20:38:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Gee, Hentor, sure seems like you can educate me, here. > > So I look at the voter rolls, and discover that Sven Yorgensen, of 1365 Walnut Street, Apt G., is a registered voter who voted in the last ten elections. > > I visit Mr. Yorgensen’s apartment and knock on the door. “Mr. Yorgensen, did you vote in this most recent election?” > > “Yes, I did.” > > “And, sir, are you a citizen?” > > “Yes.” > > “Do you happen to have some proof of that, sir?” > > “Kyss mig i arslet!” And Sven slams the door in my face. > > The name Sven Yorgensen does not appear in any INS databases – that is, he’s not a naturalized citizen nor was he admitted via visa. > > What now, Detective Hentor? Didn’t Sven register to vote? Why don’t we just confirm the information he provided on his voter registration??? If we cannot do so, we can count him as a provisional case of voter fraud. And no, I don’t think there’s a citizen database. I do think you are either being exceptionally and deceitfully obtuse on this matter, though, or you really are just that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/502 "2012-06-19T20:42:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Didn’t Sven register to vote? Why don’t we just confirm the information he provided on his voter registration??? If we cannot do so, we can count him as a provisional case of voter fraud. When Sven registered to vote, he checked the YES box [on the question that asked, “I am a citizen of the United States of America (YES/NO).”](http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/documents/VoterRegistration/sbe_voter_app_DOJ-Printed.pdf) So when you say, “Why don’t we just confirm the information he provided on his voter registration?” I’m not sure what you mean. We asked him, and he replied, "“Kyss mig i arslet!” Remember? What do you mean, specifically, we should do to “confirm the information?” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/503 "2012-06-19T20:46:25Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Catching a miscreant is tangential to this thread. Some of us are claiming that actual voter fraud (by citizens or non-citizens) is so small a problem as not to require a solution, let alone the ‘solution’ of voter ID laws. We’ve noted that there is virtually no evidence of such voter fraud. The “ask someone whose name has been checked off as voted if in fact they did so” was offered as a method to investigate the presence of such fraud. Getting replies of “no” would indicate that another had voted in their place, thus constituting fraud. So far, there has been no demonstration by this or any other method that fraud is a significant problem. > > Lacking such a demonstration of actual fraud, your demand that we now provide a means to convict the perpetrators of this hypothetical crime is putting the distracting cart well before the actual horse. How can I demonstrate actual cases of non-citizens voting? That’s the evidence you’re demanding. I’m saying it’s virtually impossible to do this. You seem to be saying before we can take steps to allow us to catch non-citizens voting, I have to show it’s a problem. But the current system doesn’t allow me to show it’s a problem. How do you recommend I proceed? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/504 "2012-06-19T20:49:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When Sven registered to vote, he checked the YES box [on the question that asked, “I am a citizen of the United States of America (YES/NO).”](http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/documents/VoterRegistration/sbe_voter_app_DOJ-Printed.pdf) > > So when you say, “Why don’t we just confirm the information he provided on his voter registration?” I’m not sure what you mean. We asked him, and he replied, "“Kyss mig i arslet!” Remember? > > What do you mean, specifically, we should do to “confirm the information?” Then your issue is with Virginia not following it’s own rules about registration, since that would not be sufficient to complete the form you downloaded. Stupid or disingenuous or both? Let’s just go with douchenozzle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/505 "2012-06-19T20:51:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Then your issue is with Virginia not following it’s own rules about registration, since that would not be sufficient to complete the form you downloaded. Stupid or disingenuous or both? Let’s just go with douchenozzle. Can you be more specific? What else is needed? What rule about registration do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/506 "2012-06-19T20:54:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you be more specific? What else is needed? What rule about registration do you mean? Didn’t read your own link? Start with “Starred items are required.” See if you can puzzle out the meaning, dimwit. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/507 "2012-06-19T20:54:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When Sven registered to vote, he checked the YES box [on the question that asked, “I am a citizen of the United States of America (YES/NO).”](http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/documents/VoterRegistration/sbe_voter_app_DOJ-Printed.pdf) > > So when you say, “Why don’t we just confirm the information he provided on his voter registration?” I’m not sure what you mean. We asked him, and he replied, "“Kyss mig i arslet!” Remember? > > What do you mean, specifically, we should do to “confirm the information?” Well, when you register, you have to give some sort of ID (for example, valid SSN). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/508 "2012-06-19T21:05:34Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Didn’t read your own link? Start with “Starred items are required.” See if you can puzzle out the meaning, dimwit. Here are the starred items: Will you be 18 years old? (Sven answered YES) SSN: Sven provided his SSN, which both citizens and non-citizens can have Gender: Sven said M Date of Birth: Sven said 11/25/1970 Last, first, middle: Yorgensen, Sven Gottislan Suffix: none Residence: 1365 Walnut Street, Apt G., Chespeake, Va, 22124 Have you ever been convicted of a felony: NO Have you ever been judged mentally incap: NO Signature: Sven signs Previous voter registration: no ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/509 "2012-06-19T21:08:43Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, when you register, you have to give some sort of ID (for example, valid SSN). Non-citizens can have a valid SSNs. And no, when you register in person, you don’t need ID. Even if you registered by mail, a bank statement or utility bill are sufficient (both of which can be had by non-citizens and neither distinguishes citizens from non-citizens.) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/510 "2012-06-19T21:09:38Z")
Well, **Bricker** anybody and everybody knows that the zip code 22124 is for _Oakton_, VA (W of Arlington) which is hundreds of miles away from Chesapeake, VA (S. of Norfolk, zip 23322). Therefore, because of my vast knowledge of zip codes, there is no need for Voter ID because it’s **obvious** Mr. Sven is an illegal. The man can’t even fake a valid US address! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/511 "2012-06-19T21:10:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Non-citizens can have a valid SSNs. Wait. How can they both have valid SSNs, and not be in the immigration databases? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/512 "2012-06-19T21:11:09Z")
How long are you going to continue to pretend that the answer is obvious and I’m just dim for not seeing it. Hentor? Do you think anyone – even the people on your side – are reading this and thinking that you’re winning this argument? Don’t you know that they can see you’re dodging and answering in generalities and that I am answering in very specific terms? Don’t you know that they can see me pressing you for specific answers and you getting more and more insulting instead of supplying them? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/513 "2012-06-19T21:11:24Z")
So Sven registers. Sven votes. Democracy comes crashing down. And that is why it is so urgently important the nobody votes on Sunday. Got it. Crystal clear. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/514 "2012-06-19T21:23:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How long are you going to continue to pretend that the answer is obvious and I’m just dim for not seeing it. Hentor? The Social Security Administration DOES keep citizenship status with their records. So, since Sven has provided us with a SS number, all we need to do is check the number. > [@](#): > > Do you think anyone – even the people on your side – are reading this and thinking that you’re winning this argument? Don’t you know that they can see you’re dodging and answering in generalities and that I am answering in very specific terms? Don’t you know that they can see me pressing you for specific answers and you getting more and more insulting instead of supplying them? Pure bluster, you stupid douchenozzle. You’ve just walked yourself right into evidence of citizenship provided on a registration application. So, yes, I assume that everyone reading this sees exactly what the situation is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/515 "2012-06-19T21:23:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Wait. How can they both have valid SSNs, and not be in the immigration databases? A bunch of ways. The easiest to explain: prior to 1973, there was no [centralized distribution of Social Security Numbers](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/789/are-social-security-numbers-recycled). No checking was done on any information; they simply issued you a card. Another: prior to 1998, there was no process by which registrations were checked for valid SSNs (in Virginia). Other ways require me going back and modifying the hypothetical a bit to make it like the case of [Ramon Cue](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/gov-rick-scott-florida-is-absolutely-not-targeting-minorities-in/1233277) in Miami: you find an entry for a Sven Yorgensen in the database, but Sven denies he’s that Sven. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/516 "2012-06-19T21:24:09Z")
Case law coming in five, four, three… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/517 "2012-06-19T21:24:40Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The Social Security Administration DOES keep citizenship status with their records. So, since Sven has provided us with a SS number, all we need to do is check the number. Pure bluster, you stupid douchenozzle. You’ve just walked yourself right into evidence of citizenship provided on a registration application. Prior to 1973? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/518 "2012-06-19T21:43:33Z")
At last, the debate is back to the really important issue of the validity of voter id laws, and away from such silly distractions as fucking over voters. Nice going, guys. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/519 "2012-06-19T21:55:58Z")
This is a matter I agree with the Republicans on. And it’s unrelated to how low voter fraud might be today. As a matter of principle, you should have to show ID to vote. Period. If you can’t be bothered to get an ID to vote, you don’t deserve to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/520 "2012-06-19T22:56:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > At last, the debate is back to the really important issue of the validity of voter id laws, and away from such silly distractions as fucking over voters. Nice going, guys. The current debate is about the specific steps that might be used to identify and prosecute a non-citizen who voted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=27)