# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 269
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5361 "2014-06-06T01:00:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > In other words, it’s possible for Bricker and I do have a side discussion about whether the impact of “you must go to a DMV” type laws is identical in every state or not, and for Bricker to suggest “some states have more DMVs, and more public transit, and thus in those states it is easier to get to the DMV”, and for me to agree that Bricker has a point, without either of us actually doing a bunch of research and coming up with a chart of precisely which states do or do not have what amounts of public transit and how many DMVs each state has and so forth. Nor is agreeing with Bricker about that minor point a concession that he is in any way right about the larger point… it could still certainly be the case that every one of those laws is odious and antidemocratic, even if there are state-by-state variations in exactly how much of a burden otherwise-identical voter ID laws would create. Is there anyone in this thread that DOESN’T understand the fundamental differences between what Max just wrote and the majority of my opponents’ posting here? Does anyone want to defend the position that this, and Lobohan’s efforts, are anywhere near the same level of logic, clarity, and structure? Seriously. It’s making me crazy to imagine a readership that says, “Well, that’s a good post, but so is elucidator’s. I think they’re both at the same level.” There may be lots of people here with passion and righteous indignation, but why is there only one that can carry on a good debate? I haven’t budged Max from his position, any more than I have budged Lobohan or Bryan. But in the latter cases, I have no idea if it’s because they don’t get it or there is a flaw in my logic. Max clearly and forthrightly points out flaws, acknowledges points scored, and so I understand that he gets what I am saying – even though, obviously, he is unswayed. Do the rest of you see this? Or not? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5362 "2014-06-06T01:09:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there anyone in this thread that DOESN’T understand the fundamental differences between what Max just wrote and the majority of my opponents’ posting here? Does anyone want to defend the position that this, and Lobohan’s efforts, are anywhere near the same level of logic, clarity, and structure? > > Seriously. It’s making me crazy to imagine a readership that says, “Well, that’s a good post, but so is elucidator’s. I think they’re both at the same level.” > > There may be lots of people here with passion and righteous indignation, but why is there only one that can carry on a good debate? I haven’t budged Max from his position, any more than I have budged Lobohan or Bryan. But in the latter cases, I have no idea if it’s because they don’t get it or there is a flaw in my logic. > > Max clearly and forthrightly points out flaws, acknowledges points scored, and so I understand that he gets what I am saying – even though, obviously, he is unswayed. > > Do the rest of you see this? Or not? Does anyone else not notice that Bricker ignores my very simple chain of logic, and instead of showing how it isn’t sound, he says, “I disagree.” If you disagree, but cant intelligently argue your case, you’re clinging to ideology, not thinking. Max, bless him, is under the misconception that Bricker is honest but mistaken. The real deal is that Bricker knows he’s being shitty, and is dishonest enough to try to cloud it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5363 "2014-06-06T01:42:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There may be lots of people here with passion and righteous indignation, but why is there only one that can carry on a good debate? I haven’t budged Max from his position, any more than I have budged Lobohan or Bryan. But in the latter cases, I have no idea if it’s because they don’t get it or there is a flaw in my logic. I can’t speak for Lobohan (and I dislike the notion that I have some obligation to do so, but that relates back to Bricker’s repeated requests that we of liberal ilkville be self-policing) but if you honestly have no idea why your arguements fail to move me, then I’m honestly baffled, because I’ve gone to quite some length to articulate my opinions on the matter and have, I feel, done so in a manner that was not misleading or cryptic or opaque. I can certainly understand your not _wanting_ to understand. That’s your right, of course, but don’t let’s be ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5364 "2014-06-06T01:45:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Does anyone else not notice that Bricker ignores my very simple chain of logic, and instead of showing how it isn’t sound, he says, “I disagree.” > > If you disagree, but cant intelligently argue your case, you’re clinging to ideology, not thinking. > > Max, bless him, is under the misconception that Bricker is honest but mistaken. The real deal is that Bricker knows he’s being shitty, and is dishonest enough to try to cloud it. Ok, one last time. Your chain of logic, as you call it, rests upon the necessity of accepting certain assumptions. It is with those assumptions that I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5365 "2014-06-06T01:57:39Z")
“Really totally pissed off about that guy, taking a Boy Scout hatchet and chopping up those rescue pound puppies, sheesh, what total asshole thing to…” “Just a minute, here! Despite the Boy Scouts failure to support the liberal agenda, that is no reason to denigrate a fine institution that…” “Not about the Boy Scouts, about that purée of puppy. Boy Scouts hatchet was simply the instrument…” “And a perfectly good instrument, it is, too! A mainstay of campfires everywhere, and you guys want to suggest that its the same thing as a tomahawk, which was typically flint-bladed…” “Hey! Hey! Look, its not about the damn hatchet. OK?! Its about what the hatchet was used to…” “…And if you can’t be trusted to understand such simple concepts as the distinction between a hatchet and a tomahawk, clearly you have little understanding of…” “GODDAMIT!! It is NOT, repeat, NOT, about the stinkin! hatchet The fuck is the matter with you…” “Well, apparently you cannot hold a civil debate without resorting to such tactics…” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5366 "2014-06-06T02:15:46Z")
**elucidator** , you’re my ilk, right? Or am I yours? Anyway, I police you! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5367 "2014-06-06T04:09:41Z")
That’s not how it works! That’s not how any of this works! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5368 "2014-06-06T04:23:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > …Hope that clears things up. Not perzackly, but no big. Side conversation, you and the\*\* Brick\*\*, whatever floats yer boat, don’t need to understand. A private conversation where I don’t have to pay $3.99 a minute, sure… ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5369 "2014-06-06T05:50:42Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Does anyone else not notice that Bricker ignores my very simple chain of logic, and instead of showing how it isn’t sound, he says, “I disagree.”. Can you either lay out your entire chain of logic in one nice convenient post, or link to a post where you have already done so? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5370 "2014-06-06T07:53:50Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Can you either lay out your entire chain of logic in one nice convenient post, or link to a post where you have already done so? Sure. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17434160&postcount=5316](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17434160&postcount=5316) The main thing I’d like to know, is how you justify fixing a problem, _janky votes throwing off elections_, by doing something likely to _throw off elections_. If a law were passed that all polling places had to be on the 4th floor of walk-up buildings, that would make less people vote. Similarly putting hurdles in front of people who already can vote, is going to make some of them not do it. To bat your eyelashes, as Bricker does, and pretend that it would have no effect, is awfully disingenuous in the extreme. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5371 "2014-06-06T09:10:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Seriously. It’s making me crazy to imagine a readership that says, “Well, that’s a good post, but so is elucidator’s. I think they’re both at the same level.” You’re the one who claims that Gingrich’s impeachment show proves Clinton’s blowjob was a more serious crime than Bush’s stupid war with corrupt aftermath which killed half a million, disrupted millions of lives, etc. And you dare compare yourself with **elucidator**? Sheeesh. > [@Bricker](#): > > There may be lots of people here with passion and righteous indignation, but why is there only one that can carry on a good debate? Very few here would argue against voter ID requirements _if they were implemented fairly_. But that’s not what the GOP wants, nor what your idol Karl Rove wants. If you were in a decision-making position you’d favor whatever corrupt method would help your team. But for you, SDMB is just a debating game. You’d argue that the Earth is flat if that’s what your defendant needed, and are happy to practice those skills here. Most of us are more interested in combatting the increasing corruption in the U.S. I read your drivel because I’m curious about the sincerity of your ignorance. Do you _really_ admire Karl Rove? Do you _really_ think the blowjob was as corrupt as Halliburton’s War against Gog and Magog? _I really don’t know what your true beliefs are_. If I thought you were stupid I’d ignore you. Instead I’d like to dismember your brain and see if there’s a soul hiding inside. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5372 "2014-06-06T11:17:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok, one last time. I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5373 "2014-06-06T14:17:02Z")
I’m a lurker, I guess. I’ve followed this thread since the beginning and made my first post to it at #496. I’ve posted in excess of fifty times, and I believe I debated in good faith. Early on I countered **Bricker’s** insinuation that only people lacking adequate desire to participate in the political process would allow these ID requirements to dissuade them from voting, by offering my own situation whereby a lost box of records prevented me from obtaining a renewal of my valid photo ID. This despite the fact that…. > [@CannyDan](#): > > … I have high speed internet, a flexible job, a car, money, and a college education (useful for interpreting and wading through government forms). That 10% of eligible voters who do not possess picture ID now (temporarily at least) includes me. So I can tell you first hand that we’re not all lazy, uninformed, non-contributing societal parasites… And I argued against earlier iterations of his “so you want to be a king” silliness, and pointed out that even he couldn’t deny the scurrilous motivations behind these laws. > [@CannyDan](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Who evaluates the evidence and determines what conclusion the evidence compels? > > We do. It’s a message board. But you knew that. > > None of us are in positions of power where we can directly control the weighty matters of our time. (Or at least, if any of us are, we don’t here allege to have that power, for fear of being laughed off these boards in disbelief.) So we claim and declaim, we argue and debate (to each their own). Some may learn from these exchanges, even reach new understandings of certain issues. Occasionally minds may be changed, or not, ignorance might be fought, and entertainment is commonly provided. > > Evidence has been presented that the intention of voter ID laws (as presently constituted) is to reduce voter participation, or the effect will be to reduce voter participation, or both. And that reduction will almost certainly favor the party most strongly working for those laws. In such a context some of us declare the actions of “ID demanding GOP vote suppressors” to be wrong, counter to democratic (small ‘d’) principles, abhorrent, or worse. > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > I have no real doubt in my mind that the people pushing for these changes are doing it, in large measure, because they believe it will advantage them politically…. > > It appears that the evidence compels you to a conclusion, too. > > We (many of us, the pinko-hippie contingent at least) condemn this. We understand how the system works, we know that legislatures have passed these laws, and we are \ cognizant of the rulings of courts of competent jurisdiction. And so we express our ire against those legislatures, and our disappointment in those court rulings. Because we believe that the result is to undermine the very foundation of our democratic process by providing an unfair advantage to one party over another, an advantage that by its very design could be a permanent distortion of the political fabric of this country. And we believe that this should be apparent, and equally disturbing, to any person who holds this country dear. > > But you knew that too. > > And knowing all of this, your best response is “The laws were passed and the courts upheld them. Neener neener!!”. Golf clap for you, buddy. And quite a bit of discussion after that. But frankly I withdrew because it’s become circular and much less interesting. So you guys can carry on the good fight, and I’ll keep on reading, and maybe interject something once in a while. But as far as this lurker is concerned, the debate is decided. Not on points, because I’m not a high school debate coach and this isn’t merely an exercise in stylistic pedantry. But on substance. The ID demanding GOP vote suppressors and their supporters and apologists come up long on partisanship but short on democratic (small ‘d’) principles. Game over. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5374 "2014-06-06T15:12:44Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I’m a lurker, I guess. I’ve followed this thread since the beginning and made my first post to it at #496. I’ve posted in excess of fifty times, and I believe I debated in good faith. I appreciate you de-lurking to respond. > [@](#): > > But as far as this lurker is concerned, the debate is decided. Not on points, because I’m not a high school debate coach and this isn’t merely an exercise in stylistic pedantry. But on substance. The ID demanding GOP vote suppressors and their supporters and apologists come up long on partisanship but short on democratic (small ‘d’) principles. Game over. Sure - you had a viewpoint and nothing has been said has altered that. I get that. But I’m sort of asking about the points aspect, the aspect of actually reading and responding to the points being made. As I read what you said, it sounds like you’re saying the issue is so clear, so cut and dried, that stylistic pedantry doesn’t matter. But what about the fact that others in the world don’t agree? Here’s where that stylistic pedantry might have some value: yes, you’re convinced, but lots of people aren’t – enough people aren’t, in fact, that lots and lots of states have passed these laws, and people seem to be supporting them. So how do you go about reversing that trend? Might there be some value in actually deconstructing and understanding the other side, in responding to actual, not strawman, arguments? In worrying about the points, in other words? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5375 "2014-06-06T15:34:41Z")
Bricker, you’ve been more thoroughly deconstructed than the world trade center ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5376 "2014-06-06T15:42:48Z")
Shall we all take a moment to express our gratitude for **Bricker** ’s invaluable assistance in honing our rhetorical and argumentative skills? Gee, thanks, **Bricker.** There’s mine. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5377 "2014-06-06T15:45:21Z")
Well, anytime stylistic pedantry is mentioned, I know my thoughts will be of Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5378 "2014-06-06T16:01:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I’m sort of asking about the points aspect, the aspect of actually reading and responding to the points being made. Of course it’s hypothetically possible for someone to read this thread, think about the issues involved, and say “well, Bricker out-argued and out-logicked and out-debated and out-cited and out-actually-made-relevant-point-ed the liberal denizens of that thread by a final score of 43 to 24. Of course he’s still wrong”. It would be perfectly possible to have had a debate in the past about some now-totally-settled social issue in which the side supporting what we now as a society view as horribly evil clearly won the debate “on points”. (not saying that happened here, of course…) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5379 "2014-06-06T16:19:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Of course it’s hypothetically possible for someone to read this thread, think about the issues involved, and say “well, Bricker out-argued and out-logicked and out-debated and out-cited and out-actually-made-relevant-point-ed the liberal denizens of that thread by a final score of 43 to 24. Of course he’s still wrong”. > > It would be perfectly possible to have had a debate in the past about some now-totally-settled social issue in which the side supporting what we now as a society view as horribly evil clearly won the debate “on points”. Absolutely. Someone could say, in effect, “It’s obvious you’re generally wrong, Bricker, but you are framing the debate in such a way as to maximize the few areas in which you’re right, and because your opponents feel they cannot concede any ground at all, you are succeeding at debate by highlighting those failures of concession but still you are unable to convince anyone of the overall correctness of your position.” Or someone could say, “Every point you made has been disproved, so you’re wrong and you lose.” I’m trying to understand which of those views more closely predominates here amongst people that are reading but not participating. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5380 "2014-06-06T16:31:11Z")
Someone came to my door yesterday, and inadvertently used the words “valid neutral consideration” and were shocked to receive a brisk flogging with my cane. I bought some of her cookies, however, so perhaps all is well… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=268) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=270)