# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 291
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5801 "2014-07-02T15:19:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Had malign motives in creating laws to control voting, but stacking the electoral deck wasn’t one of them? Were they trying to impress Jodie Foster? Is that another “joke?” ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5802 "2014-07-03T01:20:06Z")
Psst, Bricker: posts 5771 and 5790 still await your response. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5803 "2014-07-03T03:50:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But most people also favor requiring Voter IDs. So I’m perfectly happy to take the opinion of most people. You’re not. That’s right, because our form of government isn’t a pure democracy for a reason. There are fundamental principles. There are societal mores. Also, I bet quite a few of those people are for voter IDs but may well be against the associated costs some conservatives have included. I don’t have a problem with voter IDs that don’t take the time and other resources many people don’t have to spare. Counting that most people is like the conservative claim that most people are against Obamacare. They included liberals who are against Obamacare because it doesn’t go far enough. Those conservatives also gloss over the fact that when asked about the specific provisions of Obamacare, most people favor most of them. I think this kind of assertion is why many people dislike your style of “debate”. Form over content. Yes, the statement is superficially true, but if you dig deeper, it’s just propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5804 "2014-07-03T04:01:56Z")
Isn’t the very existence of a constitution undemocratic, in the sense that there are things expressly forbidden even if the population majority-voted for it, i.e. a referendum to kill all Jews or whatever. There have certainly been times in American history where plebiscites such as this would have gotten 51% support or more. Of course, the very fact that democracy is limited in this fashion allows the democracy to exist, whereas the uncontrolled form would rapidly descend into violence, chaos, civil war. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5805 "2014-07-03T23:28:09Z")
Hurricane Arthur is God’s vengeance on North Carolina for all this voter-suppression shit! So there! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5806 "2014-07-04T03:41:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is that another “joke?” I just figured you out. You’re not disingenuous, you’re socially inept. “What is this thing, you liberals call, _joke_?” _— Brickky Stardust_ ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5807 "2014-07-04T05:19:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Didn’t that genetic transition happen, like, 3000 posts ago? It’s like you’re suddenly noticing that dinosaurs aren’t around. Well, I still love it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5808 "2014-07-06T12:09:02Z")
To kinda sorta get the thread back on topic…I’ll post something about the oh-so-horrible effects of requiring ID to vote. > [@](#): > > North Carolina’s voter ID law opponents, who claim the ID requirement will suppress minority turnout, can’t be happy with the results of a new study that shows a nearly 30 percent increase in black voter turnout from 2010 to 2014. [http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/153077-racist-voter-id-laws-much2/](http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/153077-racist-voter-id-laws-much2/) Pretty damn oppressive, yep, yep. ---
**Author:** ![WWhiskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WWhiskey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WWhiskey)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5809 "2014-07-06T16:12:41Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > To kinda sorta get the thread back on topic…I’ll post something about the oh-so-horrible effects of requiring ID to vote. > [http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/153077-racist-voter-id-laws-much2/](http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/153077-racist-voter-id-laws-much2/) > > Pretty damn oppressive, yep, yep. Oh very nice! Quick stop them folks before they show everyone how competent they really are! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5810 "2014-07-06T16:34:23Z")
Wherever do you guys keep finding these strictly non-partisan sources for fact? I am impressed with the care these guys take to give a fully rounded and unbiased viewpoint! As evidenced in their sources… > [@](#): > > …"The recent election in North Carolina shows that the Obama administration is engaged in a race-baiting canard when it suggests that voting integrity measures suppress minority votes,”… Well, there you have it! Who needs to include any other possible interpretations when the clear truth is so succinctly outlined! How can anyone doubt that such a clearly unbiased and non-partisan phrasing like “race baiting canard” springs from any motivation but a fervent desire for unvarnished candor? What? Blightbart and World Nut Daily had both thumbs up their respective butts and couldn’t type anything? A pity they didn’t include all those candid photos of black folks in NC celebrating their joyous and unanimous approval of NC Republicans, or the many, many approving and laudatory quotes from local black leadership, blubbering in gratitude. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5811 "2014-07-06T22:18:02Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > To kinda sorta get the thread back on topic…I’ll post something about the oh-so-horrible effects of requiring ID to vote. > [http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/153077-racist-voter-id-laws-much2/](http://www.ijreview.com/2014/07/153077-racist-voter-id-laws-much2/) > > Pretty damn oppressive, yep, yep. Rats. I saw this post and was very pleased. Then I read the link: > [@](#): > > The North Carolina law prohibits same-day voter registration and requires voters to show ID prior to casting their ballot, yet the study reveals an overall increase in turnout, with black voter turnout showing the largest jump: Sounds like a solid thumping for the contrary position, right? Except: > [@](#): > > The study was conducted in connection with the state’s new voter ID law, which goes fully into effect in 2016; however, 2014 was a dry run of the law, where officials asked voters if they had ID during the May primary. And I’m not reading anything about the voters that answered “no,” not being counted in the study. So this is meaningless. The law did not prevent anyone from voting, being a “dry run.” It doesn’t make any sense to argue that this shows that Voter ID opponents were wrong. Voter ID proponents argue that requiring ID will reduce minority turnout – they don’t argue that merely asking a voter IF he has ID will reduce turnout. Of course, it means nothing in the other direction, either. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5812 "2014-07-07T01:11:09Z")
> **[Students Joining Battle to Upend Laws on Voter ID (Published 2014)](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/us/college-students-claim-voter-id-laws-discriminate-based-on-age.html?_r=0)** > > College students have joined a legal challenge in North Carolina, claiming that the state’s requirements discriminate based on age. **Students Joining Battle to Upend Laws on Voter ID** _College Students Claim Voter ID Laws Discriminate Based on Age_ > [@](#): > > In Texas, voters must show a photo ID. A state handgun license qualifies, but a state university identification card does not. North Carolina students have also complained of government efforts, distinct from the new voting law, to shut down voting sites at Appalachian State University and Winston-Salem State University. > > Under the North Carolina law passed last year, the period for early voting was shortened and same-day registration was eliminated. Beginning in 2016, voters will need to show photo identification, and student ID cards, including those issued by state universities, will not be acceptable. > [@](#): > > Lawyers for the students believe they can make the case that the law is intentionally discriminatory. As proof of this intent, they note that the state prohibited the Division of Motor Vehicles from registering 17-year-olds who will turn 18 by Election Day this fall. All other eligible voters could register there. In court documents filed in late June, the state said it had reversed that policy but did not say why. > > The lawyers also point to the state’s decision to allow military and veteran identification cards, but not student IDs, as “strong evidence that the legislature wanted to make it difficult for young citizens to vote.” The students’ suit has been combined with the suits from the other groups. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5813 "2014-07-07T16:03:02Z")
Hey, you kids! Over here, my lawn is well tended, and you are welcome any time! Don’t worry none about the dog, he’s too drunk to bite. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5814 "2014-08-07T17:11:26Z")
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/) \*\* A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots cast\*\* > [@](#): > > I’ve been tracking allegations of fraud for years now, including the fraud ID laws are designed to stop. In 2008, when the Supreme Court weighed in on voter ID, I looked at every single allegation put before the Court. And since then, I’ve been following reports wherever they crop up. > > To be clear, I’m not just talking about prosecutions. I track any specific, credible allegation that someone may have pretended to be someone else at the polls, in any way that an ID law could fix. > > So far, I’ve found about 31 different incidents (some of which involve multiple ballots) since 2000, anywhere in the country… Now, keep in mind, this does not take into account any number of super-dooper ultra close elections that might have been swayed if all 31 of those votes had happened in the same election and all for the same candidate! Nor has it anything to say about all the super-dooper ultra close elections that might very well happen at some time in the future, unless firm and decisive action is taken! Oh, a side note about the all=important voter confidence: > [@](#): > > …His research found that the other claim made by voter ID supporters–that the laws make people feel more confident in the electoral process–doesn’t hold up either. > > “People who think elections are being stolen, and people who think they’re not, each hold on to that opinion no matter what the governing ID rules in their area,” he said… Well, duh. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5815 "2014-08-07T19:29:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, duh. From your link: > [@](#): > > Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens. As extensively hashed out in this very thread, the issue is not a concerted effort to steal an election. It’s an election that comes down to the wire, ultra-close, and for which we cannot trust the results because we don’t know that all the cotes came from qualified voters. it’s true that “trying to steal an election” rarely happens that way. But that’s a strawman argument. Still, you have quoted a truly inspiring authority: a Washington Post guest-blogger who is a law professor and (gasp!) liberal as the moon is high. He offers his non-binding, libby liberal view of what the law should be. So let me offer a somewhat more solid, grounded, grown-up version of a write-up which declares what the law [ACTUALLY IS:](http://www.wicourts.gov/sc/opinion/DisplayDocument.pdf?content=pdf&seqNo=118665) > [@Wisconsin Supreme Court](#): > > We review a decision of the court of appeals reversing an order of the circuit court that declared portions of Wisconsin’s voter identification law, 2011 Wis. Act 23, unconstitutional and permanently enjoined its enforcement. > . > . > . > Finally, we conclude that plaintiff’s facial challenge fails because Act 23’s requirement to present photo identification is a reasonable regulation that could improve and modernize election procedures, safeguard voter confidence in the outcome of elections and deter voter fraud. See **Crawford v. Marion Cnty. Election Bd.** , 553 U.S. 181, 191 (2008). > > Accordingly, we affirm the decision of the court of appeals. Hey, look at that. Our old friend _Crawford v. Marion County_! Don’t you just love that decision? Its poetry, its charm, its sophistication? Me too! So, one one hand, liberal law professor who is on no one’s court says that Wisconsin is wrong…and on the other hand, Wisconsin’s Supreme Court, saying Wisconsin gets to keep their Voter ID law! Hmmm… which side would I like to be on? I know: the side that actually wins the case. I know, I know – the side that wins the hearts of the Washington Post and Mother Jones, that’s a good side too. Sure. No question about it. But I’ll make you a deal, elucidator: as long as the courts keep handing down those decisions, your team of liberals can keep moaning about how bad they are. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5816 "2014-08-07T22:16:17Z")
Shorter Bricker: The court says that people are confident, so therefore they are confident. What a dumb fuck. Total authoritarian: those are the facts because the authorities told me so! Fuck your empirical research about people’s confidence in reality. Sycophantic bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5817 "2014-08-07T22:32:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Shorter Bricker: The court says that people are confident, so therefore they are confident. > > What a dumb fuck. Total authoritarian: those are the facts because the authorities told me so! Fuck your empirical research about people’s confidence in reality. > > Sycophantic bitch. I have already noted the fatal flaw in that empirical research – it asked people who were asked for photo ID for their sense of confidence – but those people were well aware that photo IDs were not REQUIRED, so of course the mere asking does not boost confidence. You simply pretend that this objection does’t exist. I have no idea how you justify this to yourself, but I have two theories. You are willingly a liar in the service of a higher “good” cause. Or you’re just fundamentally dishonest. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5818 "2014-08-08T00:54:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have already noted the fatal flaw in that empirical research – it asked people who were asked for photo ID for their sense of confidence – but those people were well aware that photo IDs were not REQUIRED, so of course the mere asking does not boost confidence. > > You simply pretend that this objection does’t exist. I have no idea how you justify this to yourself, but I have two theories. You are willingly a liar in the service of a higher “good” cause. Or you’re just fundamentally dishonest. > Which is it? The study linked in the article under discussion uses a representative survey sample. I don’t know what, if any, study you’re talking about, but the one in question was not selected by history of being asked for voter ID. It is entitled: “Vote Fraud in the Eye of the Beholder: The Role of Public Opinion in the Challenge to Voter Identification Requirements” You might have actually read it if you did not make your decisions solely on what your chosen authorities tell you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5819 "2014-08-08T01:31:49Z")
> [@](#): > > …Still, you have quoted a truly inspiring authority: a Washington Post guest-blogger who is a law professor and (gasp!) liberal as the moon is high. He offers his non-binding, libby liberal view of what the law should be… Say, if your still doing your improvisational lecture series on Logic 101, you could use this one for your _ad hominem_ example, got all the needful elements. Also, what I’m mostly interested in is his ability to count, basic arithmetic, he comes up with a number. So either the number is roughly true, or exactly true, or orders of magnitude totally wrong, his political leanings don’t necessarily enter into it. He’s lying, or he’s wrong about the numbers? OK, prove it. But aren’t you somewhat obligated to do a better job of it than just exposing his unsavory political leanings? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/5820 "2014-08-08T01:39:29Z")
There are provably more than 31 cases. There were over 100 in Minnesota alone in 2008. > **[High Pagerank Domains for Sale](https://electionintegritywatch.com/)** > > High Pagerank Domains for Sale \>\> As an SEO professional, you know how important it is to have quality domains in your arsenal to achieve your goals. And that’s only convictions. If we use the same logic with tax fraud, then tax fraud is such a vanishingly small problem that we shouldn’t burden taxpayers with having to prove their income. [http://www.irs.gov/uac/Enforcement-Statistics-Criminal-Investigation-(CI)-Enforcement-Strategy](http://www.irs.gov/uac/Enforcement-Statistics-Criminal-Investigation-%28CI%29-Enforcement-Strategy) Only 2300 tax fraud convictions per year, out of hundreds of millions of returns filed! Obviously, tax fraud is not a problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=290) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=292)