# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/581 "2012-06-21T17:14:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At least two states with Democratically-controlled legislatures have passed voter ID laws. Are they also known right-wing partisans? How do they like their porridge prepared? I said it before, but apparently I need to say it again: Even Democrats and Democrat-leaning people can be swayed by propaganda. And the whole ‘voter ID crisis’ has been just that – propaganda. It’s been phrased as a have-you-quit-beating-your-wife argument, and this has had an effect on some legislators on both sides of the aisle. But despite insinuations (“Dems count on illegal alien votes!!”), no one is actually in favor of voter fraud. Not even us dirty hippies. (OK, surely somewhere some whack job espouses this, but let’s be real here.) And I suspect few even of us liberals are actually opposed to voter ID. What we oppose is the trumped up crisis, the short time frame for implementation, and the lack of support provided to those affected by a need to secure photo ID to ensure their ability to exercise their Constitutional franchise in the next election. In short, we oppose a partisan advantage being institutionalized into law. As a lover of our Constitutional system, you should not accept impediments to voting if those impediments are avoidable, regardless of whether those impediments have a partisan or bipartisan effect. If in fact, as you claim, the real crisis is a theoretical future one, then you should support efforts to hold off on new laws that will cause fewer people to be able to have their voice heard at the polls. Not forever, mind you. Just for the time required to draft laws that will actually prevent voter fraud and that _also include support systems_ to ensure that all eligible voters can meet the requirements without hardship so that neither party is advantaged at the expense of the other. One person, one vote. Instead you chortle _fait accompli, neener neener, undo it if you can!_ I’m disappointed in you. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/582 "2012-06-21T19:03:12Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And this in turn doesn’t refute the fact that you are a right-wing partisan, or at least damn close to it. So right winger want equal rights for gays? They are prochoice? That is news to me. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I think it was either this thread or another where I pointed out that I’m all but a left-wing partisan, but only because the right-wing in this country is, as far as I can see, wrong on literally every issue. Well, except the Big Gulp ban. That was bullshit. Also, I hate to break it to you, buddy, but nobody is buying the claim that you are “far from right wing”. Everyone says that here. Considering how left the board leans, and the knee jerk attitude if your not one of us, youre one of them, Im not surprised that you react this way. That just goes to show that the responses are more partisan knee jerk then thought out. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/583 "2012-06-22T09:26:30Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > So right winger want equal rights for gays? They are prochoice? That is news to me. Haven’t seen that position from you. My apologies. > [@](#): > > Considering how left the board leans, and the knee jerk attitude if your not one of us, youre one of them, Im not surprised that you react this way. > > That just goes to show that the responses are more partisan knee jerk then thought out. Yes, that’s a _great_ way to avoid responding to me. Call me a partisan and ignore my argument. You know, exactly what you accused me of doing. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/584 "2012-06-22T15:31:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You, on the other hand, are a Republican, and a Republican partisan. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > To make it more clear, we all understand that those most hurt by these laws are poor, minorities, the elderly, and the young. All but one of these demographics swings heavily liberal, and the one that doesn’t is both a mixed bag and dying out anyways. Somehow, I think if the voters in question who were finding it ‘difficult’ to vote were wealthy, white republicans, this discussion wouldn’t be taking place. I like the crack about the elderly republican voters dying off so who gives a shit if they can’t vote, though. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Ignoring the issue of people who can’t drive, people who work full-time in multiple jobs, people who simply can’t afford to take the time off and visit the DMV (which may be quite a good distance away). [Multiple jobs](http://www.ourfactsyourfuture.org/admin/uploadedPublications/4364_apr11_art.pdf). A link from stats in Montana. They say the 2009 National Average was 5.2%. So, only half the 11% who don’t have ID’s actually work more than 1 job. Now how many of that subset are an undue distance from a place to get an ID? How many of the 5.2% are employed in multiple jobs for an entire 4 year period where it is impossible for them to take a day off work? To find a friend to drive them? That don’t have access to a bus. Etc, Etc. You’re essentially left with the cost of an ID that someone has 4 years to save up for. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > But Germany also works very hard to ensure that _everyone_ can get this ID. They have much more of a nanny state going on (and I think they’re better off for it, honestly). USA? 11% of voting-age adults don’t have photo ID. Again, once you think about the effort needed for people without driver’s licenses to get photo ID, you realize why. Again, Canada doesn’t give people IDs. I guess we expect people to be adults and get one themselves, or to comply with one of the many other options for equivalent ID. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/585 "2012-06-22T15:45:37Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You’re essentially left with the cost of an ID that someone has 4 years to save up for. I agree with you. Most, lets say 10% of the 11% could find the time within two years (they haven’t had four years) to go and get an ID. However, in reality, it just doesn’t rank as that high a priority to most people who are struggling to survive. Hell, I’d be willing to bet that 7-8% of them probably don’t even know that an ID will be required. What it is is a defacto hurdle that’s placed in front of them whereby many will just say, “Fuck it” where they otherwise wouldn’t have. I mean, come on, even when people aren’t wearing themselves out struggling to survive, people are lazy. Sure, you could blame it on them for being apathetic, but the real problem is the hurdle that’s being put in front of them to solve a make-believe problem. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/586 "2012-06-22T16:01:43Z")
I am (sort of) enjoying the position we see here that the solution to the chimerical voter fraud problem is to become more like Europe, when any solution to the real health care problem that leads to that result must be staunchly resisted. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/587 "2012-06-22T17:38:32Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Most, lets say 10% of the 11% could find the time within two years (they haven’t had four years) to go and get an ID. > > However, in reality, it just doesn’t rank as that high a priority to most people who are struggling to survive. If it’s not that high a priority for them to find the time to get the ID if they are “struggling to survive”, why do you think it’s a high a priority for them to find the time to go vote on election day? How big is the subset of people who (a) Can’t find the time/money/motivation to get an ID over the course of a few years because they are struggling to survive, work multiple jobs, and can’t drive, and (b) Can find the time/money/motivation to go vote on election day? On election day, suddenly they aren’t struggling to survive, they’re not working multiple jobs, they can find someone to drive them? Can we have concrete examples of these mythical creatures, besides people spouting off statistics? On a more general note, why is this topic a partisan issue? It seems to me that either you think being able to vote without an ID is crazy or you think it’s acceptable as long as voter fraud is demonstrably negligible. One’s position on this should not be a left-right issue. If anyone’s position on this issue is influenced by how many voters their party will win or lose depending on the outcome of such laws, they are partisan hacks. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/588 "2012-06-22T17:48:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If it’s not that high a priority for them to find the time to get the ID if they are “struggling to survive”, why do you think it’s a high a priority for them to find the time to go vote on election day? > > How big is the subset of people who (a) Can’t find the time/money/motivation to get an ID over the course of a few years because they are struggling to survive, work multiple jobs, and can’t drive, and (b) Can find the time/money/motivation to go vote on election day? > > On election day, suddenly they aren’t struggling to survive, they’re not working multiple jobs, they can find someone to drive them? > > Can we have concrete examples of these mythical creatures, besides people spouting off statistics? > > On a more general note, why is this topic a partisan issue? It seems to me that either you think being able to vote without an ID is crazy or you think it’s acceptable as long as voter fraud is demonstrably negligible. One’s position on this should not be a left-right issue. > > If anyone’s position on this issue is influenced by how many voters their party will win or lose depending on the outcome of such laws, they are partisan hacks. Another position would be that you are against any voter fraud, but that there is no proposed system that would mwaningfully change the level of voter fraud. Further, in addition to these minimal to not existent benfits, there are substantial costs. Thus, you prefer the status quo, until a better solution is proposed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/589 "2012-06-22T17:54:36Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If it’s not that high a priority for them to find the time to get the ID if they are “struggling to survive”, why do you think it’s a high a priority for them to find the time to go vote on election day?.. They give a fuck? > [@](#): > > …How big is the subset of people who (a) Can’t find the time/money/motivation to get an ID over the course of a few years because they are struggling to survive, work multiple jobs, and can’t drive, and (b) Can find the time/money/motivation to go vote on election day?.. Want to tell us how big it has to be to matter? > [@](#): > > …On election day, suddenly they aren’t struggling to survive, they’re not working multiple jobs, they can find someone to drive them?.. Yes. There are many such programs and volunteers. > [@](#): > > …Can we have concrete examples of these mythical creatures, besides people spouting off statistics?.. What line do you want to pursue? They don’t exist at all, or there are too few of them for you to care about? > [@](#): > > …On a more general note, why is this topic a partisan issue? It seems to me that either you think being able to vote without an ID is crazy or you think it’s acceptable as long as voter fraud is demonstrably negligible. One’s position on this should not be a left-right issue… It pleases some to dwell with intensity on the voter id issue, because that’s where they feel most comfortable, and will drag the discussion there by any means available. I don’t have any problem with voter id, I have a problem with using that as an excuse to empower one party over another. Did I mention that? Pretty sure I did… > [@](#): > > …If anyone’s position on this issue is influenced by how many voters their party will win or lose depending on the outcome of such laws, they are partisan hacks. Not a matter of winning or losing votes, its a matter of the method. Again, I think we covered this. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/590 "2012-06-22T17:56:19Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > If it’s not that high a priority for them to find the time to get the ID if they are “struggling to survive”, why do you think it’s a high a priority for them to find the time to go vote on election day? > > How big is the subset of people who (a) Can’t find the time/money/motivation to get an ID over the course of a few years because they are struggling to survive, work multiple jobs, and can’t drive, and (b) Can find the time/money/motivation to go vote on election day? > > On election day, suddenly they aren’t struggling to survive, they’re not working multiple jobs, they can find someone to drive them? > > Can we have concrete examples of these mythical creatures, besides people spouting off statistics? > > On a more general note, why is this topic a partisan issue? It seems to me that either you think being able to vote without an ID is crazy or you think it’s acceptable as long as voter fraud is demonstrably negligible. One’s position on this should not be a left-right issue. > > If anyone’s position on this issue is influenced by how many voters their party will win or lose depending on the outcome of such laws, they are partisan hacks. Well, for one, voting doesn’t require the same logistics as obtaining an ID. DMV sites are normally only open during working hours (8-5). I was going to source my home state ¶, but they’re website appears down at the moment. Additionally, there is usually only one or a few offices per county. Compared to voting (7 or 8AM - 8PM) and a normally (can’t speak to rural as I have no experience there) close voting center, usually within walking distance. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/591 "2012-06-22T18:10:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [QUOTE=Polerius] > If it’s not that high a priority for them to find the time to get the ID if they are “struggling to survive”, why do you think it’s a high a priority for them to find the time to go vote on election day?.. They give a fuck? [/QUOTE] And they don’t give a fuck before election day? Suddenly they give a fuck only on election day, and not a day sooner on being prepared to vote? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/592 "2012-06-22T18:13:52Z")
Lets stipulate that they are either stupid or lazy. Doesn’t matter, isn’t the point. Making it more difficult for stupid or lazy people to vote is one thing. Making it more difficult for the stupid or lazy people who lean towards one political party is quite another kettle of piranha. Pretty sure I mentioned this. Couple times. Sixty. Somewhere in there. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/593 "2012-06-22T18:16:26Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > DMV sites are normally only open during working hours (8-5). I was going to source my home state ¶, but they’re website appears down at the moment. Additionally, there is usually only one or a few offices per county. > > Compared to voting (7 or 8AM - 8PM) For some of the people mentioned here, i.e. those struggling to survive, I think the 8am-8pm range is not that much better than the 8am-5pm range of the DMV, since they are working multiple jobs which will span most of the day, and not just during normal business hours. So, even with the 8am-8pm range, it seems that some people will need to take time off work, just like they have to with the 8am-5pm range. To really help with this aspect, voting should move to Sundays. (Anyone know why it’s always Tuesdays in the US?) > [@](#): > > and a normally (can’t speak to rural as I have no experience there) close voting center, usually within walking distance. I tried to find info on this, but after a quick web search, can’t find stats on the max distances of polling stations. Anyone have any info on this? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/594 "2012-06-22T18:24:13Z")
Whole 'nother can of worms. The relative ease of voting, the convenience, of the inner city districts as compared to the suburbs. That, by all rights, should be equalized, a voter from the lower socio-economic rungs should be equal in those regards with his more affluent fellow citizen. Such efforts as I am suggesting have typically met resistance. Go ahead, guess who. Win a cookie. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/595 "2012-06-22T18:24:34Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > To really help with this aspect, voting should move to Sundays. (Anyone know why it’s always Tuesdays in the US?) Right there with ya. In fact, Republicans also removed Sunday as an early voting day in Florida. It also just so happens that African-Americans are twice as likely to vote on the Sunday they took away. Go figure. But another thing to keep in mind is that the time frame for voting has been that way for a long time, so people are familiar with it, though I agree it doesn’t make it any easier for some people. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/596 "2012-06-22T20:37:46Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I am (sort of) enjoying the position we see here that the solution to the chimerical voter fraud problem is to become more like Europe, when any solution to the real health care problem that leads to that result must be staunchly resisted. And vice versa! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/597 "2012-06-22T20:42:00Z")
Hmmm. That is to say, uh, what? What vice, which versa? ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/598 "2012-06-22T20:51:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hmmm. That is to say, uh, what? What vice, which versa? About to leave work and don’t want to wait for the gotcha, so I’ll just lay out why the vice-versa is wrong in this instance. A.) Democrats/Liberals don’t mind imitating European policies that work. We’re a pragmatic bunch. B.) The situation and logistics in Europe is different than in America. In Europe, most countries REQUIRE ID for everyone. I’ll also add that several liberal posters in this thread and others have endorsed this system, but for all intents and purposes, it’s not going to happen in the near future in the U.S. due to big brother worries. Thus, it’s not a big deal for European countries to require it to vote, because everyone already has one. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/599 "2012-06-22T21:12:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Lets stipulate that they are either stupid or lazy. Doesn’t matter, isn’t the point. Making it more difficult for stupid or lazy people to vote is one thing. Making it more difficult for the stupid or lazy people who lean towards one political party is quite another kettle of piranha. The best way to counteract this would be for Democrats to make it less likely for stupid people on the other side to vote, by pushing their own particular buttons. So, maybe they should start a “grass-roots” campaign to paint elections as an atheist commie plot. “Why, the good people in the Bible didn’t need no elections. It was an invention of those heathens, the Ancient Greeks”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/600 "2012-06-23T00:43:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Lets stipulate that they are either stupid or lazy. Doesn’t matter, isn’t the point. Making it more difficult for stupid or lazy people to vote is one thing. Making it more difficult for the stupid or lazy people who lean towards one political party is quite another kettle of piranha. Assuming that they are stupid and lazy, why should any democracy care that they vote or not? Their personalities may well reflect in their votes. Or are you hoping that your group of stupid and lazy (lets call them ‘lupids’) outweighs the lupids on the other side of the spectrum - the religious whackjob: a group while even stupider, tends to be slightly more motivated when it comes to pushing their nuttery upon others? Such that they manage to stop slamming their heads against the ground worshiping their idols to figure out how to vote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=31)