# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 307
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6121 "2014-09-15T14:56:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …But I say that’s not the correct rule. even without Voter ID, wealthy people can more easily afford to take time off work to go vote, and choose to vote during less busy times, which generally means that they’ll spend less time in line. And we accept this inequity, as we accept the fact that LOTS of things are easier for people who have money. That doesn’t make our current system “immoral.”… So, if we cannot create absolute and total equality at a stroke, we shouldn’t make any improvements in that direction because…ah, because…why, again? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6122 "2014-09-15T15:00:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Bricker, can a generally moral system produce an occasional immoral result? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6123 "2014-09-15T15:02:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, if we cannot create absolute and total equality at a stroke, we shouldn’t make any improvements in that direction because…ah, because…why, again? I don’t say we shouldn’t. I say that you don’t get to unilaterally win an argument by declaring that certain changes are improvements. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6124 "2014-09-15T15:03:32Z")
Well, do you get to win by saying they aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6125 "2014-09-15T15:15:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. Well, that’s what happened, so your challenge to name an alternative to representational democracy, indeed the notion that such an alternative is required or relevant, is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6126 "2014-09-15T15:50:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Bricker, can a generally moral system produce an occasional immoral result? > [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that’s what happened, so your challenge to name an alternative to representational democracy, indeed the notion that such an alternative is required or relevant, is moot. But I don’t agree that’s what happened. And you can’t simply declare that this happened. Or, more accurately, you can, and I can simply declare that it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6127 "2014-09-15T15:51:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t say we shouldn’t. > > I say that you don’t get to unilaterally win an argument by declaring that certain changes are improvements. Report him to the Mods if you feel he’s done something he oughtn’t’ve. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6128 "2014-09-15T15:52:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, do you get to win by saying they aren’t? Yes. Does this seem unfair? But it’s a consequence that arises because I don’t have the burden of making any case. I’m just sitting here. If I prove nothing, and you prove nothing, no proposition is advanced. Things remain as they are. I am fine with that. But you are not. You seek change. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6129 "2014-09-15T15:53:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Report him to the Mods if you feel he’s done something he oughtn’t’ve. I don’t say he’s flouted the rules of the SDMB. I say he’s missing the burden of proof in debate. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6130 "2014-09-15T16:00:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I don’t agree that’s what happened. And you can’t simply declare that this happened. > > Or, more accurately, you can, and I can simply declare that it didn’t. Declare anything you want, sport. You lost on moral and logical grounds and this idea that we have to supply an alternative to the legislative process is the obvious desperation of a loser trying to claim he was playing.a different game all along. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6131 "2014-09-15T16:08:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t say he’s flouted the rules of the SDMB. > > I say he’s missing the burden of proof in debate. You’re comically wrong in your effort to divert, compounded by the fact that you only bring your “you hate democracy” tactic into play after you’ve lost the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6132 "2014-09-15T16:21:44Z")
As a suggestion for Bricker, the next time a voter ID thread starts, he should make clear in his very first post that opponents to such laws must describe an alternative to the legislative process or else they will be missing the burden of proof in debate, and that he refuses to further participate until this burden is met. THAT’LL show US! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6133 "2014-09-15T16:33:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Declare anything you want, sport. You lost on moral and logical grounds and this idea that we have to supply an alternative to the legislative process is the obvious desperation of a loser trying to claim he was playing.a different game all along. I don’t agree I’ve lost on any grounds. As long as you retain the right to define moral laws, then of course you’ll construct a moral framework in which your arguments are all miraculously winners. But your ability to declare your moral laws true is pretty limited. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6134 "2014-09-15T16:39:28Z")
I declare my moral laws true. That was easy. So, if your demands for an alternative to the legislative process are met, will you then demand to know exactly how much steel and concrete were used for each floor of the World Trade Center? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6135 "2014-09-15T18:24:15Z")
No, no, he’s quite right, things as they are is the default position, those wild-eyed radicals who assert that things should be changed have to overcome the burden of proof, and conclusively show that changing things will make them better. All sensible people know this. God Save the King! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6136 "2014-09-15T18:27:57Z")
You can’t let people go around changing things. That’s how you get Protestants. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6137 "2014-09-15T18:47:50Z")
[quote=“Bryan\_Ekers, post:6134, topic:624943”] I declare my moral laws true. That was easy. [quote] But in debate, meaningless, since a gratuitous assertion like that can be denied by your opponents, equally gratuitously. So: no they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6138 "2014-09-16T01:10:35Z")
Yes, they are. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6139 "2014-09-16T01:16:41Z")
I came here for an argument, not mere gainsaying! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6140 "2014-09-16T01:17:27Z")
“We hold these truths to be self-evident” is about as gratuitous an assertion as has ever been made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=306) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=308)