# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 308
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6141 "2014-09-16T01:17:33Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I came here for an argument, not mere gainsaying! No, you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6142 "2014-09-16T01:44:57Z")
This is futile! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6143 "2014-09-16T01:47:22Z")
If you want me to go on arguing, you’ll have to pay for another five posts. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6144 "2014-09-16T01:56:13Z")
That was never 5 posts just now. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6145 "2014-09-16T02:54:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not a “new form of technology.” > > It’s a law that creates a new incentive for having a photo ID, and also creates a free photo ID. It’s absolutely reasonable to say that the introduction of a new, free ID, and a law that requires photo ID in order to vote, will cause more people to get photo IDs… It’s not free if the requirements to get it cost. Put a camera in the polling booth and make it as easy to get ID as vote and I’m all for it. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6146 "2014-09-16T13:14:12Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > It’s not free if the requirements to get it cost. > > Put a camera in the polling booth and make it as easy to get ID as vote and I’m all for it. Not in the booth. That makes it too easy to link the vote to the voter. The picture should be taken at the table where they sign you in. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6147 "2014-09-16T13:39:04Z")
Now I’m curious what happens if photo evidence shows two illegal voters in an election with a margin of ten votes. Is confidence sufficiently shaken to require a revote? Is there any level contemplated that would so require? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6148 "2014-09-16T14:05:51Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > … The sole remedy would be criminal charges against the cheating voter. You couldn’t find the right vote to toss. But it’s still a huge deterrent to cheating. Very few people would risk this. In fact, there are [protocols for having secrecy and auditability in balloting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cacadril/Secret-ballot_receipt) which can be adapted for the purpose. One would then learn how the fraudulent voter voted, but that’s the whole point. But the larger point is, of course, that people will not risk arrest to cast a vote whose value is small. The thread is about vote-suppression by the GOP and **Bricker** has managed to hijack it into an irrelevant discussion. It would be refreshing for **Bricker** to state he’s aware of how despicable GOP malice in electoral practices is. (Maybe he has – with 1500 Bricker posts in this thread, I’m certainly not going to search for it. What would the search terms be anyway? “… apologize … I’m a hypocritical twit …”?) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6149 "2014-09-16T14:40:46Z")
You’re expecting far too much self-awareness there. It’s like expecting **Smapti** to recognize that the fact that his arguments can be used to defend and endorse slavery and the holocaust means it’s a bad argument, or expecting **Clothahump** to actually utter a coherent thought in the SLIOTD thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6150 "2014-09-16T14:46:08Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I came here for an argument, not mere gainsaying! Then don’t try to advance your side of the argument with gratuitous assertions. The gainsay of a gratuitous assertion is perfectly permissible in debate. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6151 "2014-09-16T14:47:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “We hold these truths to be self-evident” is about as gratuitous an assertion as has ever been made. Yes. And? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6152 "2014-09-16T14:49:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In fact, there are [protocols for having secrecy and auditability in balloting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cacadril/Secret-ballot_receipt) which can be adapted for the purpose. One would then learn how the fraudulent voter voted, but that’s the whole point. > But the larger point is, of course, that people will not risk arrest to cast a vote whose value is small. Ramon Cue. Neville Waters. > [@](#): > > It would be refreshing for **Bricker** to state he’s aware of how despicable GOP malice in electoral practices is. (Maybe he has – with 1500 Bricker posts in this thread, I’m certainly not going to search for it. What would the search terms be anyway? “… apologize … I’m a hypocritical twit …”?) I know how despicable it is that your view of good government is, “Rules I want, period.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6153 "2014-09-16T14:57:21Z")
Been there, done that. _Some_ Republicans _may_ have corrupt motives, but the thing itself remains pure and unsullied because voter confidence is a valid neutral justification and in a super-dooper close election a unicorn stampede _might_ effect the results. Also, we don’t know that voter fraud isn’t rampant because we didn’t have laws to prosecute voter fraud and now we do, so when we see there is no voter fraud _now_ its because these laws work so good. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6154 "2014-09-16T15:16:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ramon Cue. Neville Waters. If you’re using anecdotal evidence to argue that the laws are needed, can someone use anecdotal evidence to argue that the laws are harmful, with equal or at least comparable justification? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6155 "2014-09-16T15:20:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If you’re using anecdotal evidence to argue that the laws are needed, can someone use anecdotal evidence to argue that the laws are harmful, with equal or at least comparable justification? The post you quote was refuting **septimus** ’s claim, “…that people will not risk arrest to cast a vote whose value is small.” It is permissible to refute a claim by providing a single counter-example. That’s not an example of anecdotal evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6156 "2014-09-16T15:24:18Z")
Nevertheless I see you invoking Cue and Waters quite often. Is this ONLY to refute claims that voter fraud never happens? Assuming for the sake of argument that Cue and Waters are guilty, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6157 "2014-09-16T15:49:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I know how despicable it is that your view of good government is, “Rules I want, period.” See, this is just pathetic. Nobody is arguing this. Nobody is arguing that their opinion should be fiat rule (not even our resident fascist is arguing for that). This discussion is not and has never been about “does the system make voter ID law”. Every time you present it in that light, you’re being a disgusting liar. Stop being a lawyer for five minutes - there’s a reason everyone hates them. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6158 "2014-09-16T15:49:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I know how despicable it is that your view of good government is, “Rules I want, period.” It sounds like you’re still pretending that I, and fellow thinkers, oppose legitimate efforts to improve election integrity. In fact, as we’ve explained to you over and over _and over and over and **over and over and over and over** _, what we oppose is blatant voter suppression by the GOP. You mystify me, **Bricker**. Periodically you emit farts which reek of above-average intelligence. Yet on many simple matters, such as the preceding paragraph, you exhibit willful stupidity which puts you in the same category as Shodan and the other SDMB right-wing dolts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6159 "2014-09-16T16:02:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nevertheless I see you invoking Cue and Waters quite often. Is this ONLY to refute claims that voter fraud never happens? No. Sometimes it’s a proof of concept. Here, however, it was a rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6160 "2014-09-16T16:04:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > See, this is just pathetic. Nobody is arguing this. Nobody is arguing that their opinion should be fiat rule (not even our resident fascist is arguing for that). This discussion is not and has never been about “does the system make voter ID law”. Then what are you saying should happen? Everyone is arguing the law should be erased, but no one is arguing that fiat rule should be used. So be specific: what, precisely, are you arguing should happen? You announced, offended, that you’re not arguing for fiat rule, and then you go back to demanding that a rule be removed from existence. By what mechanism? Specifically? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=307) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=309)