# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/601 "2012-06-23T00:54:42Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Folks, please, just let go of this faux naivete about “what on earth does minority status have to do with it?” [/wide-eyed wonder] > To remind everybody of what this issue is about: The **facts** about voter-ID laws are these (and if you care to try to dispute them _as_ facts, knock yourself out): > > 1. There is a small but not insignificant proportion of registered voters, and a higher percentage of total eligible voters, who do not possess a government-issued identity document of the kind the voter-ID laws require. > > 2. These voters are demographically much more likely than the average voter to be poor or members of ethnic minorities, and consequently much more likely to vote Democratic than Republican. > > 3. Consequently, imposing voter-ID laws makes it statistically inevitable that there will be some net suppression of Democratic votes. _Whenever_ you impose a regulation making it more difficult or complicated to vote (e.g., having to acquire an official document that you don’t already own), it inevitably suppresses some votes. > > 4. That Democratic vote suppression is the only measurable impact the voter-ID laws will have. Even the proponents of voter-ID laws acknowledge that they cannot show any evidence that non-negligible amounts of voter fraud are actually occurring, nor will they be able to tell whether voter-ID laws are actually effective in preventing it if it **is** occurring. In other words, we can’t tell whether the alleged problem actually exists nor whether the proposed solution will solve it: we do know, however, that the proposed solution will have the “side effect” of suppressing some votes. > So stop already with the cherubically innocent prattle about “but gosh folks, those poor and minority voters can just go **get** themselves the required ID! See, nothing to worry about!” > > The **point** , twinkletoes, is that _it is statistically inevitable that some voters who have to undertake a hitherto-unnecessary additional procedure in order to maintain their eligibility to vote won’t undertake it, **and this necessarily means that fewer poor and minority voters will vote** _. > > You know this as well as we do; in fact, it’s the only real reason that Republicans in general are supporting the voter-ID laws in the first place. So please drop the pretense that the fact that it’s disproportionately poor and minority voters who would be affected by these laws is somehow trivial or irrelevant. It’s the crux of the whole debate. I’m not a Republican, and I see nothing in this post that explains why _minorities_ have any more difficulty obtaining ID than anyone else. Let’s get real, I admit that it is the **poor** who are unlikely to a)have, or b) get, a government identification card. Yes, many of the poor are minorities, but not all. **The only reason the term minority is used in this context is that it implies that voter ID supporters are racist**. If the problem is that the poor can’t or won’t get ID, then let’s fix that. But continuing to use the phrase “poor and minorities” is disingenuous, twinkletoes. I live in a state that has same-day voter registration, and the requirements for proving residence are amazingly sloppy in this age of Photoshop. I want safeguards, even if it is only 8 votes per election that are fraudulent ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/602 "2012-06-26T05:00:26Z")
A question to conservatives (because I know what the liberals are gonna say): when the PA House Majority Leader (a Republican in this case) says that voter ID laws are "[gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania,"](http://www.politicspa.com/turzai-voter-id-law-means-romney-can-win-pa/37153/) what did he mean? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/603 "2012-06-26T05:08:29Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A question to conservatives (because I know what the liberals are gonna say): when the PA House Majority Leader (a Republican in this case) says that voter ID laws are "[gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania,"](http://www.politicspa.com/turzai-voter-id-law-means-romney-can-win-pa/37153/) what did he mean? I can’t read minds, but I can offer a guess: he meant that he believed that in prior years there had been a non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud, and the Voter ID laws now in place will prevent similar problems this year. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/604 "2012-06-26T10:19:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can’t read minds, but I can offer a guess: he meant that he believed that in prior years there had been a non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud, and the Voter ID laws now in place will prevent similar problems this year. And if you believe that one, I have an implied analogy to sell you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/605 "2012-06-26T15:51:01Z")
Not that he agrees, mind you! Just sayin’, is all… ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/606 "2012-06-26T19:31:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can’t read minds, but I can offer a guess: he meant that he believed that in prior years there had been a non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud, and the Voter ID laws now in place will prevent similar problems this year. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha… (phwew! let me rest a minute) So Obama won PA in 2008 by 3,276,363 to 2,655,885, a margin of 10.3%. Indeed, that margin would certainly qualify as “a non-trivial” one, if it were due to Democratic voter fraud. And you honestly suggest there is a snowball’s chance in hell that he, or anybody else, actually believes this? Pull the other one, it has bells on. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/607 "2012-06-26T20:06:20Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A question to conservatives (because I know what the liberals are gonna say): when the PA House Majority Leader (a Republican in this case) says that voter ID laws are "[gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania,"](http://www.politicspa.com/turzai-voter-id-law-means-romney-can-win-pa/37153/) what did he mean? I think he is blowing smoke out of his ass and is just trying to rally voters. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/608 "2012-06-26T20:06:51Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > I’m not a Republican, and I see nothing in this post that explains why _minorities_ have any more difficulty obtaining ID than anyone else. > > Let’s get real, I admit that it is the **poor** who are unlikely to a)have, or b) get, a government identification card. Yes, many of the poor are minorities, but not all. > > **The only reason the term minority is used in this context is that it implies that voter ID supporters are racist**. No, I don’t think so. 1. I’d agree that poverty, not race or ethnicity, is the factor that has to do with difficulty of getting ID. 2. But the poor are disproportionately minorities, and minorities disproportionately vote Democratic. And that’s where the connection with election outcomes comes in. 2a) You can’t make that connection without using the term ‘minorities’ or some equivalent. 3. Because of (1) and (2), if someone wanted to change the composition of the _electorate_ to make it more Republican-leaning, without changing the composition of the population of _adult citizens_, voter ID requirements would have that effect. [QUOTE] > [@](#): > > If the problem is that the poor can’t or won’t get ID, then let’s fix that. OK. But by and large, the voter ID laws _don’t_ fix that. That’s the _point_. The people who pass these laws aren’t interested in safeguards, per se; they want to change the composition of the electorate using safeguards as an excuse. > [@](#): > > I want safeguards, even if it is only 8 votes per election that are fraudulent I can understand your sentiment. But if voting is a right, then there has to be a balance. You can’t just kick people off the voting rolls by the thousands and tens of thousands just to prevent 8 fraudulent votes. That’s really the question: is voting a right or a privilege? If it’s a right, then any burdens put on its exercise have to be proportionate to and germane to the actual threat to the integrity of the voting process. If it’s a privilege, then voting can be burdened with whatever requirements one wants to put on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/609 "2012-06-26T20:19:39Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha… (phwew! let me rest a minute) > > So Obama won PA in 2008 by 3,276,363 to 2,655,885, a margin of 10.3%. Indeed, that margin would certainly qualify as “a non-trivial” one, if it were due to Democratic voter fraud. > > And you honestly suggest there is a snowball’s chance in hell that he, or anybody else, actually believes this? > > Pull the other one, it has bells on. I think you should go back and reread what I wrote. Nowhere did I write that he believes Obama’s victory margin in 2008 was due to voter fraud. You just made that up. And, indeed, if your version of his remarks is correct, the claim is still implausible. He believes that over 600,000 people in Pennsylvania won’t be able to vote because they won’t have ID? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/610 "2012-06-26T20:24:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I can understand your sentiment. But if voting is a right, then there has to be a balance. You can’t just kick people off the voting rolls by the thousands and tens of thousands just to prevent 8 fraudulent votes. > > That’s really the question: is voting a right or a privilege? If it’s a right, then any burdens put on its exercise have to be proportionate to and germane to the actual threat to the integrity of the voting process. If it’s a privilege, then voting can be burdened with whatever requirements one wants to put on it. who gets to decide the proportionality? You? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/611 "2012-06-26T20:43:38Z")
What an interesting change of subject! ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/612 "2012-06-26T22:22:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@CannyDan](#): > > > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > > > I can’t read minds, but I can offer a guess: he meant that he believed that in prior years there had been a non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud, and the Voter ID laws now in place will prevent similar problems this year. > > > > Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha… (phwew! let me rest a minute) > > > > So Obama won PA in 2008 by 3,276,363 to 2,655,885, a margin of 10.3%. Indeed, that margin would certainly qualify as “a non-trivial” one, if it were due to Democratic voter fraud. > > > > And you honestly suggest there is a snowball’s chance in hell that he, or anybody else, actually believes this? > > > > Pull the other one, it has bells on. > > I think you should go back and reread what I wrote. > > Nowhere did I write that he believes Obama’s victory margin in 2008 was due to voter fraud. You just made that up. OK counselor, you wrote about “prior years” and so not necessarily 2008. Or perhaps yours wasn’t a reference to the presidential election, even though the original context involves Romney’s pending victory. A victory to be gained by preventing that aforementioned non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud. Or maybe you didn’t mean that Obama’s re-election constitutes a “similar problem” to be prevented. So yeah, I guess I just made that up. For a really unusual value of ‘made up’. So what exactly did you mean when you said > [@](#): > > I can offer a guess: he meant that he believed that in prior years there had been a non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud, and the Voter ID laws now in place will prevent similar problems this year that would “allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania”? > [@Bricker](#): > > And, indeed, if your version of his remarks is correct, the claim is still implausible. He believes that over 600,000 people in Pennsylvania won’t be able to vote because they won’t have ID? This I cannot parse at all. I give up. You win. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/613 "2012-06-26T23:01:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > who gets to decide the proportionality? You? You simpering twat. A solution that causes more people to not be able to vote than would cast fraudulent ballots is by definition stupid. I have a button, if I push it, I will save 5 random people from from dying of heart attacks, but 15,000 random people will immediately die from heart attacks. Bricker Logic: \*Push it! Push it real good!!1111; 1l1j \* You’re pathetic Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/614 "2012-06-26T23:59:03Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > This I cannot parse at all. I give up. You win. While there are a significant percentage of voting age citizens belonging to certain demographics without IDs, it’d be difficult to demonstrate that the number of disenfranchised voters would be a significant enough voting bloc in the upcoming election to swing it. What the statement demonstrates is the _mens rea_ of the Republicans. They cannot, in good faith, believe that there are six hundred thousand instances of voter fraud in favour of the Democrats in Pennsyltucky. Neither can they honestly believe they’ll be capable of disenfranchising that number of voters. I can only assume they wish to pass the measure in order to disenfranchise a few of them and that the trend continues until it’s a wholly Republican state. Either that, or the guy making the comments is campaigning for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/615 "2012-06-27T01:01:28Z")
ALEC. Look it up, if you don’t know about it. Its a Republican operation masquerading as civic virtue. Its very well funded, though some corporate sponsors have bailed when they saw what big teeth Grandma had. It isn’t so much about how Pennsylvania may or may not be in play, its a full court press all across the nation. By pressing for “voter fraud prevention” everywhere, they can mask the more reliable goal, of trimming off some Dem votes in close elections. This way, their pious bloviations about voter fraud become more or less “credible”. If they only did it in places where it might have practical effect, it kinda gives the game away. The people behind this aren’t stupid. And the combination of cynicism, money and power is daunting. They will get away with it. Now, of course, there are some people who totally believe this crap. Because America, as everybody knows, is a center-right country. And most Americans, as everybody knows, are inclined to favor the Republicans. Hence, it follows that the only way Dems win anything, ever, is by treachery, deceit and fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/616 "2012-06-27T03:01:02Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > OK counselor, you wrote about “prior years” and so not necessarily 2008. Or perhaps yours wasn’t a reference to the presidential election, even though the original context involves Romney’s pending victory. A victory to be gained by preventing that aforementioned non-trivial amount of pro-Democratic voter fraud. Or maybe you didn’t mean that Obama’s re-election constitutes a “similar problem” to be prevented. So yeah, I guess I just made that up. For a really unusual value of ‘made up’. > > So what exactly did you mean when you said that would “allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania”? > This I cannot parse at all. I give up. You win. Listen carefully. Or read carefully, I guess. Here’s what I say he meant: in prior years, to include 2008, there was plenty of voter fraud. Of course, Obama’s numbers were so large in 2008 that even stopping all the fraud would not have changed his win of the state. This year, with the weak economy and so many voters seeing what a poor President he is, the state will be much much closer. So eliminating all the illegal votes in Pennsylvania this year will be enough to cause the state to go GOP this year. With that meaning in mind, you see (I hope) that your quoting Obama’s 2008 margin at me was not relevant. My interpretation of his comment’s meaning does not rest on thinking that Obama’s 2008 victory was the result of voter fraud. Instead, it rests on the claim that there was pervasive, if small, voter fraud in Pennsylvania, and eliminating that fraud this year, combined with Obama’s unpopularity, should dothe trick. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/617 "2012-06-27T03:06:04Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > While there are a significant percentage of voting age citizens belonging to certain demographics without IDs, it’d be difficult to demonstrate that the number of disenfranchised voters would be a significant enough voting bloc in the upcoming election to swing it. > > What the statement demonstrates is the _mens rea_ of the Republicans. They cannot, in good faith, believe that there are six hundred thousand instances of voter fraud in favour of the Democrats in Pennsyltucky. Neither can they honestly believe they’ll be capable of disenfranchising that number of voters. I can only assume they wish to pass the measure in order to disenfranchise a few of them and that the trend continues until it’s a wholly Republican state. Either that, or the guy making the comments is campaigning for Obama. No. How about this idea: Obama won in 2008 by only 590,000 legitimate votes and got 10,000 illegal votes. This year, based on his declining popularity, he will lose Pennsylvania by 5,000 votes. But of course if he got those same 10,000 illegal votes, then he would win. So the comment is: because this year will be so close, eliminating the illegal aliens who routinely vote Democratic should do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/618 "2012-06-27T03:08:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You simpering twat. A solution that causes more people to not be able to vote than would cast fraudulent ballots is by definition stupid. > > I have a button, if I push it, I will save 5 random people from from dying of heart attacks, but 15,000 random people will immediately die from heart attacks. > > Bricker Logic: \*Push it! Push it real good!!1111; 1l1j \* > > You’re pathetic Bricker. Uh huh. I’m pathetic. But the laws are in place. I’ll take that. You can have your idiotically based version of the moral high ground. Keep it, and tell all your friends how pathetic I am. I’ll nod happily, on my way to a polling place that asks for photo ID. Which position would you rather have? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/619 "2012-06-27T03:25:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Uh huh. > > I’m pathetic. But the laws are in place. > > I’ll take that. You can have your idiotically based version of the moral high ground. Keep it, and tell all your friends how pathetic I am. I’ll nod happily, on my way to a polling place that asks for photo ID. > > Which position would you rather have? The one where I’m a good human being, as opposed to you, an outright evil fake-Christian who Christ himself would have denounced. I’ll note that you’re too much of a coward to answer the central point of my post. Your solution causes more damage than the problem. But that’s okay, because only poor people and Democrats are being hit. Fucking fringe. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/620 "2012-06-27T03:29:32Z")
Did he offer any evidence of voter fraud in Pennsylvania? Pottsylvania? Transylvania? Anywhere, at any time, whatsoever? Where did he find out about all this voter fraud, who told him? And if he actually has some evidence to offer, shouldn’t he have told someone by now, called the cops, went to the papers? Surely he isn’t going to say stuff like this without some sort of evidence, right? I mean, you would be the very first to renounce, denounce, and condemn anyone who slandered the other political party without any evidence. I’d have to run here to get ahead of you, what with your righteous indignation. And all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=32)