# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 317
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6321 "2014-10-01T00:18:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it would be a positive thing to offer it. > > I think it would be good for New York to offer it. Taking it away once it’s in place is a bad action. I think we can agree (I hope) that “be good” is not the same as “not be bad.” So I’m asking directly if it’s bad, or immoral, for New York to have never offered Sunday voting. > [@](#): > > Really? This mystifies you? In all seriousness? There are dozens, or hundreds, of votes involved. I can’t say with any confidence that a single purpose animated each person. Nor can you. At least you can’t say it truthfully. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6322 "2014-10-01T00:19:16Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It should be noted, that you’re the rancid, hypocrite prick that hates poor people while walking around with a crucifix up your ass. Another highly immoral person adds his views! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6323 "2014-10-01T01:05:28Z")
As a learned scholar recently lectured us here, the burden of proof rests on the advocate of change. If New York does not offer Sunday voting, any one who seeks to change that must prove his case assertively and definitively. Conversely, if Ohio did offer such an accommodation, anyone seeking to rescind that opportunity must prove _his_ case assertively and definitively. Change, which is by its very nature uncertain and dangerous, must defer to the default position of things as they are. I have this on the best authority, which is likely why I so firmly reject it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6324 "2014-10-01T02:32:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Another highly immoral person adds his views! How am I immoral? I’m not the one who laughs at poor folk having to jump through hoops to vote. Is it the vulgar language? I don’t think that bears specifically on my moral character. Is it that I don’t kowtow to your made-up God? Hardly seems fair, since you only believe in Him because you were brainwashed by your parents. My mom just wasn’t very good at brainwashing. Don’t hold that against me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6325 "2014-10-01T04:00:57Z")
When are you two going to stab and make up? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6326 "2014-10-01T04:12:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > When are you two going to stab and make up? Someone has to punish him, or he’ll keep shitting on the rug. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6327 "2014-10-01T04:55:15Z")
**Bricker** , your [DEL][COLOR=“Black”]justice[/DEL][/COLOR] morality would freeze beer. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6328 "2014-10-01T10:46:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As a learned scholar recently lectured us here, the burden of proof rests on the advocate of change. If New York does not offer Sunday voting, any one who seeks to change that must prove his case assertively and definitively. Conversely, if Ohio did offer such an accommodation, anyone seeking to rescind that opportunity must prove _his_ case assertively and definitively. Change, which is by its very nature uncertain and dangerous, must defer to the default position of things as they are. > > I have this on the best authority, which is likely why I so firmly reject it. They say a stopped clock is right twice per day. . . a record you no doubt find both admirable and unattainable. This is one of those times. Unfortunately, your insight deserted you after only a fleetingly short visit. Yes, those seeking a change in Ohio’s rules are the ones who bear the burden of persuasion. What are Ohio’s rules at present? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6329 "2014-10-01T10:56:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Taking it away once it’s in place is a bad action. I can imagine it being positive, if: 1. It was expensive, and 2. It was not being used. Those two conditions _should_ be considered when cutting back on government services. In this case, Bricker’s response seems limited to “They’re doing it because they _can_”, then pretending to wonder why this is unsatisfactory. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6330 "2014-10-01T12:48:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think we can agree (I hope) that “be good” is not the same as “not be bad.” > > So I’m asking directly if it’s bad, or immoral, for New York to have never offered Sunday voting. It might be a little bad. If it is, it’s not nearly as bad as taking it away once it’s in place. > [@](#): > > There are dozens, or hundreds, of votes involved. I can’t say with any confidence that a single purpose animated each person. > > Nor can you. At least you can’t say it truthfully. But we don’t need to know every individual’s motivations – we just need to know the motivations behind those who introduced and fought hardest for it. Based on various statements by Republican supporters, and based on actual fraudulent voting statistics, the “this would decrease Democratic turnout and help Republicans” motivation seems to be larger than the “this would prevent voter fraud” motivation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6331 "2014-10-01T12:49:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I can imagine it being positive, if: > > 1. It was expensive, and > 2. It was not being used. > > Those two conditions _should_ be considered when cutting back on government services. In this case, Bricker’s response seems limited to “They’re doing it because they _can_”, then pretending to wonder why this is unsatisfactory. Sure, but I don’t see any evidence this was the case in OH. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6332 "2014-10-01T16:46:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > They say a stopped clock is right twice per day. . . a record you no doubt find both admirable and unattainable. > > This is one of those times. > > Unfortunately, your insight deserted you after only a fleetingly short visit. > > Yes, those seeking a change in Ohio’s rules are the ones who bear the burden of persuasion. > > What are Ohio’s rules at present? No “insight” deserted me, it was flung aside as it well deserved. How much clearer could I make it that your alleged “principle” was nothing more than a self-serving bit of rationalization? The interests of justice and equality are best served by making voting as easy and convenient as possible. That people who live in economically disadvantaged areas spend vastly more time trying to exercise their voting rights is a shame, compelling reason enough for change. That this shameful state is preserved by Republicans hoping to maintain an undeserved electoral advantage is an affront to our principles. Perhaps “Sunday voting” is not the best way to attain this goal. We are open to suggestions. Perhaps you will point out for us some of the suggestions that honest conservatives have offered to ensure that voting access is as freely available as possible? Why, there must be dozens of them! Well, ok, several. Some. One? ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6333 "2014-10-01T17:04:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, New York has never offered Sunday voting. And last year, they. . . still didn’t. Never discussed it, didn’t start it. > > So my question is: are we talking about a one-way rachet? A state doesn’t have to offer it, but if they do, it’s wrong to stop? > > So New York, which doesn’t offer it, is not wrong? But Ohio, who ALSO doesn’t offer it, is wrong? > > I have no idea. I agree with you that NY State not offering Sunday and other extended voting hours is not a good thing. Importantly, I also disagree with the way NY State handles absentee voting. Being busy at work is not an excuse enough for an absentee ballot unless you are in the military or a poll worker. That does not seem fair to me. Within the last month I had my first experience as a vote inspector in NY State and I begin to understand the complexities and expenses necessary to extend voting hours. Each voting machine is controlled by four people, two from each major party. Plus each polling place has an additional two people overseeing the operation and running the handicapped voting station. Just getting enough trained people available for additional days of voting would be difficult. I suppose an eight hour voting period on the Sunday before an election would be workable. But a full 16 hour day would be damned hard. Also, the issue of security around the machines would have to be dealt with. No small matter since they cannot be left in place. The polling place I work at is a firestation where they roll a truck outside all day to make room for us. Can’t ask them to do that Sunday through Tuesday. I think the future is with the on-line voting system used in Oregon. Clearly those without computers would have to be accommodated, but I’m sure there are work-arounds. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6334 "2014-10-01T17:45:49Z")
I have no problem with not reflexively assuming that any modification to voting procedure is a deliberate attempt to disadvantage voters likely to favour one’s rivals. I propose that control of how elections are managed be taken from elected officials to minimize conflicts of interest, real or perceived. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6335 "2014-10-01T18:08:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It might be a little bad. If it is, it’s not nearly as bad as taking it away once it’s in place. Why? The population of New York is 19.6 million people. The population of Ohio is only 11.5 million people. You’re asserting that it’s worse to take away 11.5 million people’s opportunity to vote early than it is to never offer it to 19.6 million people. You’re asserting that next year, when both Ohio and New York don’t offer early voting to their respective populations – identical schemes – that Ohio is worse. That’s a hard claim to defend. Have you any evidence to support this claim? One may assert that by analogy you’ve claimed that it would be even worse to remove early voting from an even smaller state. If Wyoming took early voting off the table (not that they even have it) would that be worse, or better? (Wyoming population is about 600,000 people, if that helps). What’s the exact moral rule in play? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6336 "2014-10-01T18:23:21Z")
Are you open to analysis using metrics other than (or at least in addition to) total population like, say, population density? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6337 "2014-10-01T18:25:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Are you open to analysis using metrics other than (or at least in addition to) total population like, say, population density? Sure. If there’s some person per square meter figure above which it becomes immoral to not offer early voting, I’d be fascinated to read about how, when, and by whom it was discovered or derived. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6338 "2014-10-01T18:32:34Z")
Why does morality have to enter into it? Just start with some basic premises, like democracy is weakened if some citizens are prevented from voting. Then calculate the effect of altering the voting timings or procedures and calculate if prevention is occurring and if so, if the level sufficiently low to be worth whatever purpose is served by the alteration. If the alteration is not for any particular reason, why bother with it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6339 "2014-10-01T19:12:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Why does morality have to enter into it? I suggest that question is better directed to the discussion participants that first evoked morality. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6340 "2014-10-01T19:30:41Z")
I’d rather ask you, since you invoked demographics, comparing population totals in NY and OH. There may be purely pragmatic reasons why Ohio needs Sunday voting (thus it should not be ended) and why New York does not (thus no impetus to introduce it). Or was the demographic question just another tangent? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=316) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=318)