# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/641 "2012-06-27T14:13:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not my area of law, but you guys are convincing me I should volunteer my services to the correct side of this battle. I wonder who I talk to to do that? The ghost of Bull Connor? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/642 "2012-06-27T14:31:42Z")
Duplicate post. Nm. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/643 "2012-06-27T15:05:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Secondly, one party was for isolationism during that era. It wasn’t the one associated with liberaliam, that’s for sure. You have (accidentally, I’m sure) made a valid point here. The man that made the decision to drop the bombs was a Democrat, and a a damn fine president. That was back whenb Democrats meant something good. Democratic Senator Zell Miller said it best: > [@](#): > > What has happened to the party I’ve spent my life working in? > > I can remember when Democrats believed that it was the duty of America to fight for freedom over tyranny. > > It was Democratic President Harry Truman who pushed the Red Army out of Iran, who came to the aid of Greece when Communists threatened to overthrow it, who stared down the Soviet blockade of West Berlin by flying in supplies and saving the city. > > Time after time in our history, in the face of great danger, Democrats and Republicans worked together to ensure that freedom would not falter. But not today. > > Motivated more by partisan politics than by national security, today’s Democratic leaders see America as an occupier, not a liberator. > > And nothing makes this Marine madder than someone calling American troops occupiers rather than liberators. > > Tell that to the one-half of Europe that was freed because Franklin Roosevelt led an army of liberators, not occupiers. > > Tell that to the lower half of the Korean Peninsula that is free because Dwight Eisenhower commanded an army of liberators, not occupiers. > > Tell that to the half a billion men, women and children who are free today from the Baltics to the Crimea, from Poland to Siberia, because Ronald Reagan rebuilt a military of liberators, not occupiers. > > Never in the history of the world has any soldier sacrificed more for the freedom and liberty of total strangers than the American soldier. And, our soldiers don’t just give freedom abroad, they preserve it for us here at home. > > For it has been said so truthfully that it is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech. > > It is the soldier, not the agitator, who has given us the freedom to protest. > > It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives that protester the freedom to abuse and burn that flag. > > No one should dare to even think about being the Commander in Chief of this country if he doesn’t believe with all his heart that our soldiers are liberators abroad and defenders of freedom at home. > > But don’t waste your breath telling that to the leaders of my party today. In their warped way of thinking America is the problem, not the solution. > > They don’t believe there is any real danger in the world except that which America brings upon itself through our clumsy and misguided foreign policy. > > It is not their patriotism - it is their judgment that has been so sorely lacking. They claimed Carter’s pacifism would lead to peace. > > They were wrong. > > They claimed Reagan’s defense buildup would lead to war. > > They were wrong. Zell Miller’s points were excellent ones. He didn’t leave his party. his party left him. The Democrats turned into weak sisters, infected with useless ideas and a commitment to them irrespective of any possibility of actual success. I have a thread going now in GD about “green grocer liberalism,” and folks are saying, without a hint of shame, that “at least liberals are willing to do something, even if it doesn’t work.” That’s it, in a liberal nutshell. What actually works is irrelevant, as long as we feel good about our efforts. I’ve noticed, by the way, the subtle attempt to rebrand yourselves as _progressive_. You know the public is disenchanted with do nothing, tax-and-spend liberals. Typical liberals: you get so used to language shaping meaning that you forget there’s any actual underlying meaning. Alarmed at the reception “liberal” gets, you’re now reviving that old warhorse “progressive.” And it still doesn’t help! Despite having told the voters that you regard them as simpletons, foolish sheep that must be led to the correct decisions, lest their unfortunate ovine nature lead them astray, despite assuring them that you have their best little sheepy interests at heart, they continue to favor Voter ID. They continue to want elections wherein only legal voters vote! This is what burns you, infuriates you, scalds you to your very core: that the fucking idiots voters won’t listen to you, liberal progressives with their best interests at heart. You rail at me, call me names, but that’s only misdirected anger. You can’t stand seeing the sheep have a mind of their own, can you? C’mon. Tell the truth, just once. You’ll feel better for it, I promise. You want those illegal votes. You NEED those illegal votes, And you can’t stand that the people favor taking them away from you. Admit it. Catharsis brings relief. You can do it. Do it for Zell, baby. Do it for Zell. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/644 "2012-06-27T15:09:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ah, liberals. You guys should kiss the feet of every conservative that makes it possible for you to live you poor, deluded, simple lives. Every conservative that goes to work every day so that you guys are free to sit in coffee shops, read Mother Jones, and apply for NEA grants is a conservative you should be offering to fellate in gratitude. Aaaannd… this is how I know the GOP is dying. Or at least that the peculiarly American form of rightwing conservatism is dying. They have so widened and strengthened the extreme, thuggish, reactionary margin that any remaining moderate practitioners (once prominent in the party) must walk a tight line so close to the exit that they’re eventually forced out --or forced _into_ the frothy mix of crazy, stupid and selfish that’s become the hallmark of the Republican Party. ISTM friend **Bricker** is splashing vigorously in the cesspit in the quoted post above. This may be a temporary and aberrant reaction to his having no rationally or ethically coherent support for his argument, and thus being exposed to the pain of both cognitive and moral dissonance. But personally, I suspect he’s lived in the slime for quite a while, and only jumps up on the edge of the pool when he feels like moralizing to all of us softheaded, Mother Jones reading, shiftless and godless liberals from a position of nominal respectability. And while I don’t bear such folks ill will or judge myself as morally better or intellectually stronger than they are (just more fortunate in these times in my political inclinations), I think it’s important to remember, _they have a choice_. There’s plenty of room outside the Republican asylum for **Bricker** or any sincere conservative to operate within the borders of their individual consciences. Hell, there’s room still under the Democratic tent for them if they choose it. We’ve even got showers and clean towels for mud removal. End of excursion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/645 "2012-06-27T15:15:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s my position that the solution creates a system whereby we can be confident that the votes cast are from legitimate voters. It’s my further opinion, just reached now, that this scares the shit out of you because you know how much the Democrats value illegal aliens’ and (where not permitted) convicted felons’ votes. In short, a Voter ID system scares you because you know that losing illegal votes hurts the Democrats. Well, I’ll be darned, you actually came right out and said it. Before, you only implied, insinuated, suggested, and otherwise sidled up to it, leaving yourself the trap door of deniability. Just for the sake of morbid curiosity, what is the history of this fascinating conspiracy? When did it first arise? How long has it been in operation? When did the hapless and feckless Democrats develop this conspiratorial acumen? Was it George Soros? Saul Alinsky? Leon Trotsky? Is this why Algore invented the internet? Haven’t laughed so hard since they shot Old Yeller! ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/646 "2012-06-27T15:17:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > C’mon. Tell the truth, just once. You’ll feel better for it, I promise. You want those illegal votes. You NEED those illegal votes, And you can’t stand that the people favor taking them away from you. Admit it. I suppose it might be somewhat liberating (if you’ll excuse the expression) to embrace one’s inner troll, but I can’t help but wonder if a clear thinker unimpeded by ideology might realize quoting Zell Miller and then channelling Jack Nicholson’s character in _A Few Good Men_ doesn’t exactly shore up their argument. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/647 "2012-06-27T15:18:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Do it for Zell, baby. Do it for Zell. Is it safe? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/648 "2012-06-27T15:23:41Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > ISTM friend **Bricker** is splashing vigorously in the cesspit in the quoted post above. This may be a temporary and aberrant reaction to his having no rationally or ethically coherent support for his argument, and thus being exposed to the pain of both cognitive and moral dissonance. Maybe it was a reaction to being accused of maggotry, racism, evilness, and being an Uncle Tom. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/649 "2012-06-27T15:29:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, I’ll be darned, you actually came right out and said it. Before, you only implied, insinuated, suggested, and otherwise sidled up to it, leaving yourself the trap door of deniability. > > Just for the sake of morbid curiosity, what is the history of this fascinating conspiracy? When did it first arise? How long has it been in operation? When did the hapless and feckless Democrats develop this conspiratorial acumen? Was it George Soros? Saul Alinsky? Leon Trotsky? Is this why Algore invented the internet? No, the ‘you’ in my sentence was just **Lobohan** ; the pronoun was used in the specific and not the general sense. I think most of you – and you, specifically, **elucidator** , in my opinion – want no part of illegal votes, but regard the possibility of illegal votes as too remote as to to risk doing anything to stop them that would risk losing any legitimate votes. **Lobohan** , though, feels a fear deep in his soul, or what passes for a soul. He knows – wrongly, but he’s convinced – that his party’s success will vanish if they only get legal votes. I have no idea what Soros thinks. I’m pretty confident I’m right about you. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/650 "2012-06-27T15:31:00Z")
I guess I should have picked a different analogue to illustrate how bullshit figures can become “common knowledge” when some political group wants to further some half-assed agenda. I never meant to prod Bricker into derailing this thread into a general-purpose anti-liberal rant. But since it did happen, I guess it was kind of fun! Now, folks, you might wish to return to the matter at hand – GOP vote suppression, in case you might have forgotten. ETA: I see that Bricker has already helped us get back on track. Right on. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/651 "2012-06-27T15:32:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe it was a reaction to being accused of maggotry, racism, evilness, and being an Uncle Tom. You forgot dimwit and douchenozzle. No, **xenophon41** pretty much got it right. You’ve had your ass handed to you on the primary points of the argument, so you’ve graduated from modestly on-topic argumentum ad populum to “splashing vigorously” about liberals, the bombing of Japan, Zell Miller, labeling progressivism, Mother Jones and the NEA. You keep repeating the big lie (10,000 fraudulent votes that you liberals are counting on!!!) in the hopes that it will stick. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/652 "2012-06-27T15:32:49Z")
> [@](#): > > …I’m pretty confident I’m right about you. I plead innocent as charged. I have my faults, Lord knows, and its a long damn list, but “cynicism” ain’t on it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/653 "2012-06-27T15:35:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe it was a reaction to being accused of maggotry, racism, evilness, and being an Uncle Tom. You weren’t accused. You were \*shown \*to be evil and vile. As to your being a racist or an Uncle Tom, I have little position. I mean you obviously don’t care for anyone but yourself and those in your immediate circle, but that doesn’t seem to be racially motivated, except to the extent that Democrats tend to have more minorities in the party. You are a coward, a hypocrite, and liar however. So who can say what shitty things you believe. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/654 "2012-06-27T15:41:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, the ‘you’ in my sentence was just **Lobohan** ; the pronoun was used in the specific and not the general sense. I think most of you – and you, specifically, **elucidator** , in my opinion – want no part of illegal votes, but regard the possibility of illegal votes as too remote as to to risk doing anything to stop them that would risk losing any legitimate votes. There are no significant amount of illegal votes. You are deflecting from your utter pratfall and failure. Doesn’t your God say something about false witness? Does that apply to your many lies and deceits? > [@](#): > > **Lobohan** , though, feels a fear deep in his soul, or what passes for a soul. He knows – wrongly, but he’s convinced – that his party’s success will vanish if they only get legal votes. I don’t have a soul, because we live in a mundane universe. But lets sway from your childish need to believe in magic, let’s try to keep on topic. I’m against voter fraud. But since it happens in literally tens of cases per election, a way to fight that has to be equal to the damage done. Of course, I’m not a lying hypocrite like you are, so I understand your difficulty in understanding my motives. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what Soros thinks. I’m pretty confident I’m right about you. Confidence can be born of arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/655 "2012-06-27T15:41:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …I think most of you – and you, specifically, **elucidator** , in my opinion – want no part of illegal votes, but regard the possibility of illegal votes as too remote as to to risk doing anything to stop them that would risk losing any legitimate votes. > … Bricker, I really do defer to you on just about all legal facts, but when it comes to math, not so much. Once again, it’s not that the “possibility of illegal votes” _existing at all_ is being contested. It’s that the approximate number of them (within a pretty good, but admittedly imperfect, range of statistical error) is so small that, yes, just about any action which would reduce them even further _and_ which also would probably result in some legitimate votes being suppressed\*, would mathematically almost _have_ to cause more (probably many more) occurrences of the latter than of the former. (\*That is, I’m not including actions which would probably not result in any voter suppression, such as even more stringent investigation of the very few instances of organized voter fraud. But this isn’t what the GOP has proposed — because THEY know that this wouldn’t accomplish their clear-as-day purpose.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/656 "2012-06-27T15:48:25Z")
But it isn’t “clear as day”, that’s the beauty part. That’s why they will get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/657 "2012-06-27T15:51:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But it isn’t “clear as day”, that’s the beauty part. That’s why they will get away with it. Well, that and guys like Bricker, who know it’s wrong, do it anyway, because a win through cheating is still a win. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/658 "2012-06-27T15:57:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But it isn’t “clear as day”, that’s the beauty part. That’s why they will get away with it. Apparently not – you have a point, though this still amazes me. I guess it gets back to the process illustrated by my “lives saved by avoiding a US invasion of Japan” analogy. It’s up to us to do everything we can, especially in the next few months (but afterwards as well), to get the facts out there – to try to reach as many folks as we can, while simultaneously expressing our outrage to elected officials who try to pull a fast one on us. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/659 "2012-06-27T15:59:16Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > Bricker, I really do defer to you on just about all legal facts, but when it comes to math, not so much. > > Once again, it’s not that the “possibility of illegal votes” _existing at all_ is being contested. It’s that the approximate number of them (within a pretty good, but admittedly imperfect, range of statistical error) is so small that, yes, just about any action which would reduce them even further _and_ which also would probably result in some legitimate votes being suppressed\*, would mathematically almost _have_ to cause more (probably many more) occurrences of the latter than of the former. If someone doesn’t vote because of a change in procedure of any kind, I don’t automatically regard that voter as having been disenfranchised. Instead, I ask how reasonable the change was. If the change is reasonable, then the voter’s choice to not vote is not disenfranchisement. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/660 "2012-06-27T16:00:56Z")
Only the dumbest fuck among the partisan hacks could believe that Democrats are doomed unless they get only legal votes. The whole fucking point is that Republicans are trying to suppress a certain subset of legal voters whom they know trend Democratic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=34)