# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 331
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6601 "2014-10-11T17:35:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > By implication, they certainly have. How can you declare a view immoral without asserting, implicitly, that your view of morality is definitional? Easy. For instance, slavery is immoral. 99% of us reading that agree. I can give good arguments for why I think that’s the case, broad enough arguments that you would probably agree with them. That doesn’t mean that my view of morality is in any way the only correct one. It’s certainly possible to convince someone that their position is immoral using THEIR OWN MORAL CODE. For instance, someone might come up with a really really well researched study convincing you that the monetary and logistical difficulties associated with getting a voter ID were, on average, higher than you thought. You might then (one imagines) reverse your position on the topic, and agree that your previous position was wrong. Barring some semantic quibbling about “immoral” vs “moral-based-on-the-information-I-had-at-the-time”, none of that requires anyone admitting that their entire moral system was flawed. > [@](#): > > Yes, but you handwave away a key disagreement: the weighing of various goods and harms against one another is the very essence of this debate. Umm, right? We disagree about that, but I don’t see how disagreeing about that means that we’re asserting absolute morality. Unless you’ve discovered an awesome new response to any claim made about any substantive topic in any online debate ever… “I think that our immigration policy should be X” “oh, so you are asserting that only your moral code is absolutely correct, are you?” ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6602 "2014-10-11T17:37:33Z")
Also, the judge’s last name was Ramos, so probably should have recused, and will be overturned on the point that the judge probably has brown skin. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6603 "2014-10-11T17:47:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know I did not weigh them carefully before reaching the conclusion that they were minimal? > > Oh, I know: because any careful analysis would have reached YOUR conclusion? > > BWAHAHAHAHA. Liberal goofball. > > No – calling you amoral is correct for two powerful reasons: > > (1) It’s true. > > (2) Because the legislative executive, and judicial branches of government are against you, and popular opinion also lies strongly against you, your only tactic is to insist that nonetheless morally, your cause is correct. The simplest way to show the goofiness of that claim is to remind the reader how amoral your are. And the shrill cowardice of Friend Bricker has reached fever pitch. Unable to admit he’s wrong, the hypocrite fake-Christian must turn and attack. Because there isn’t 100% agreement on morality, there is no morality. Good one, cumpig. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6604 "2014-10-11T17:52:03Z")
He’s been presented with extensive discussion of the true amount of the barriers he wishes imposed on democracy, which include multiple court rulings confirming it. But his own “careful analysis” is the repetition of the words “reasonable” and “minimal”. Let him talk about morality all he wants. It’s another concept he is incapable of understanding. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2014, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6605 "2014-10-11T19:11:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yep. That’s why this goon, a district court judge, will be overruled when the circuit courts review the decision. Well, sure that’s possible. But “valid neutral justification” has some pretty obvious weaknesses. “Valid”? When no evidence worthy of the word can be offered to proved that in-person voter fraud is a problem that needs solving. And official, government stamped evidence of voter suppression has been recently issued. “Neutral” suffers the same problems, as the evidence indicates that a particular segment of the population is targeted. Both of these things being true, “justification” doesn’t survive scrutiny, either. Not Holy, not Roman, and not, strictly speaking an Empire. Nothing needs be done to “valid neutral justification”, it doesn’t require overturning, just a simple recognition that this shit ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6606 "2014-10-12T00:54:51Z")
On the Wisconsin decisions. This is the dissent written by judge Posner (a Reagan appointee) of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals. It absolutely eviscerates the law. [http://media.jrn.com/documents/7circuitvoterid.pdf](http://media.jrn.com/documents/7circuitvoterid.pdf) [Milwaukee J-S editorial](http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/after-voter-id-decision-the-focus-should-be-on-compliance-b99366849z1-278702531.html) on the subject: > [@](#): > > We oppose voter ID because we think it’s a solution in search of a problem. Voter fraud is exceedingly rare, and what fraud there is would not be stopped by photo identification. Voting is a substantial right of citizenship that should not be infringed, and yet that is exactly what voter ID does for certain prospective voters. > > We were disappointed by Judge Frank Easterbrook’s reasoning in the federal appeals court decision this week. Easterbrook got it exactly backward. > > Even if voter impersonation is rare, he wrote, voter ID "deters fraud (so that a low frequency stays low); it promotes accurate record keeping (so that people who have moved after the date of registration do not vote in the wrong precinct); it promotes voter confidence. > > “If the public thinks that photo ID makes elections cleaner, then people are more likely to vote or, if they stay home, to place more confidence in the outcomes.” > > Actually, with voter ID, it’s more likely that fewer people will vote — especially those who don’t have identification. Many of them are prone to vote for Democrats, which explains why the other party pushed so hard for this law. Aside from new facts about the paucity of voter impersonation fraud that have come out since the Indiana decision, the Indiana and Wisconsin laws were not identical. The Wisconsin law was more blatant in it’s attempts to suppress Democratic votes. In Wisconsin soon after the ID law was passed, the DOT officials who answer to Gov. Walker were explicitly telling DMV employees not to tell people that they could get a free ID card for voting and instead imply they needed to pay the 40-60 dollars for an ID card. On top of that many DMV offices in the state cut hours. Some offices are now only open once or twice a month. This meant people with no means to get to a DMV office could not get the “free” ID. (Only free if they already had a birth certificate or could get one at no cost.) Lumped in with the ID measures were clauses to inhibit early voting, absentee voting and restrictions on voting by people who have recently moved (see:students). Under the recently struck down ID law if someone moves to a new residence on Oct.4 instead of Oct. 1, that person would be ineligible to vote. Studies show that it is low income people and students who tend to move more frequently than the wealthy which means this part of the law disproportionately affects a specific non-republican voting demographic. Except for the three Stooges, the Court may see those characteristics of the law for what they are, suppression, and reverse its own Indiana decision. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6607 "2014-10-12T01:10:38Z")
The sad part is, \*\*Bricker \*\*\*knows \*all that. It just doesn’t matter to him. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6608 "2014-10-12T01:58:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know I did not weigh them carefully before reaching the conclusion that they were minimal? > > Oh, I know: because any careful analysis would have reached YOUR conclusion? Well, one hopes it would have led to a conclusion that showed some analysis behind it. I can picture a pro-ID argument based on a premise that voter fraud was indeed pervasive and significant, with cites of elections made suspect as a result. I might not find such cites persuasive, but I would recognize the effort. > [@](#): > > BWAHAHAHAHA. Liberal goofball. I have my doubts you actually find this humourous. I suspect you believe claiming to find it humourous will substitute for reasoned argument. > [@](#): > > No – calling you amoral is correct for two powerful reasons: > > (1) It’s true. It’s true because it’s true? I do find your use of “powerful” interesting, because in matters of rhetoric, there are many possible powerful arguments, but truth is not a requirement. One could argue with an ad hominem, a witty putdown, a Gish gallop… really any number of things that may have a “powerful” effect on a third-party reader. The notion that voter fraud must be stopped is itself a powerful argument, pushing emotional buttons about electoral fairness, accuracy and justice. It is not however a _true_ argument, in that the suggested remedies are justifiable. > [@](#): > > (2) Because the legislative executive, and judicial branches of government are against you, and popular opinion also lies strongly against you, your only tactic is to insist that nonetheless morally, your cause is correct. The simplest way to show the goofiness of that claim is to remind the reader how amoral your are. Well, I invite any and all readers of this exchange to share their impressions of the effect of this so called reminder. Some gave already, but I suspect you disregard them on the basis of them being in my “gang” or me being in their ilk or some damn thing. Besides, the American judiciary and I seem to agree to some extent. Since I’m not American, it’s purely an academic exercise for me in any event. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6609 "2014-10-12T02:20:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > . . . Well, I invite any and all readers of this exchange to share their impressions of the effect of this so called reminder. As you note, it isn’t even wholly true, as the judicial branch of the U.S. government has made some rulings against voter ID laws. And, although it isn’t terribly commonplace, there have been times that all three branches of the U.S. government have been wrong. They aren’t any more omniscient than anybody else. We derive much of our freedom from the fact that they squabble among themselves. All that to one side, **Bricker** is a remarkably dishonest person when it comes to debating. Citing “It’s True” as a support for his argument being true is almost psychotically circular. > [@](#): > > Some gave already, but I suspect you disregard them on the basis of them being in my “gang” or me being in their ilk or some damn thing. I’m certainly not in your gang or ilk; I agree with you some 75% of the time, but there are points where I differ from your views. Never, I hasten to add, in such a way as to make me question your integrity. I think you’re a very honest person, and I consider those differences as interesting matters for debate, not indications of your (or my own!) wrong-headedness. > [@](#): > > Besides, the American judiciary and I seem to agree to some extent. Since I’m not American, it’s purely an academic exercise for me in any event. I could wish a lot more Yanks were a lot more like you! (At least 75% of the time!) ( 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6610 "2014-10-12T03:21:34Z")
I used to think **Bricker** had some ability to debate. This thread makes him look like a total zero. Guess that provides prima facie evidence that I, too, am amoral. Move over, guys. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6611 "2014-10-12T11:08:36Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I used to think **Bricker** had some ability to debate. This thread makes him look like a total zero. Guess that provides prima facie evidence that I, too, am amoral. > Move over, guys. Climb on board the Ilk Truck! ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6612 "2014-10-12T14:27:20Z")
Wait for me! Lemme get my bindle. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6613 "2014-10-12T15:55:53Z")
By way of our good friends at Talking Points Memo, without which no citizen can hope to be well-informed… > **[Scott Walker On Voter ID: ‘Doesn’t Matter If There’s One, 100, or 1,000’](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/scott-walker-voter-id-law-debate)** > > Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) defended his state’s voter ID law during a gubernatorial debate against Democratic nominee Mary Burke on Friday, saying that the number of would-be fraudulent voters… \*\* Scott Walker On Voter ID: ‘Doesn’t Matter If There’s One, 100, or 1,000’\*\* > [@](#): > > …“It doesn’t matter if there’s one, 100, or 1,000,” Walker said during the debate. His comments were flagged by Politico. “Amongst us, who would be that one person who would like to have our vote canceled out by a vote that was cast illegally?”… Well, maybe one doesn’t matter at all, but one hundred doesn’t matter a hundred times more than one, and a thousand… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6614 "2014-10-12T17:00:28Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > I used to think **Bricker** had some ability to debate. This thread makes him look like a total zero. Guess that provides prima facie evidence that I, too, am amoral. > Move over, guys. He called me “amoral” too! Can I come aboard the Ilk Bus? … Or maybe it was “immoral.” That would sound more exciting, if I weren’t already on beta-blocker and ACE inhibitor. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6615 "2014-10-12T17:53:05Z")
Without democracy there would be no need for such an appalling misallocation of time and energy such as this thread. There also wouldn’t be corresponding wastes of resources spent for and against such unimportant measures. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6616 "2014-10-12T18:30:16Z")
Nobody said democracy was a good idea, or anything. We just like it because its so _cool!_ ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6617 "2014-10-12T19:27:58Z")
I thought U.S. democracy as practiced for almost 200 years wasn’t all that bad. It’s the recent(\*) transmogrification to plutocracy that I regret. (Though I’m afraid plutocracy is what Farnaby’s Utopia devolves to.) (\* - roughly coincident with the rise of cable TV? :eek: ) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6618 "2014-10-12T20:26:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m certainly not in your gang or ilk Splitter! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6619 "2014-10-12T21:18:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I thought U.S. democracy as practiced for almost 200 years wasn’t all that bad. It’s the recent(\*) transmogrification to plutocracy that I regret. Recent? I got news for you. Originally only rich white men could participate at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6620 "2014-10-13T01:19:47Z")
Because of my age, the County Clerk sent me a form offering a mail-in ballot. I filled in the form & just got the ballot. Does it ask me to attach a Xerox of my photo ID? Nope. I just need to fill in the ballot with blue or blank ink, seal it, sign the envelope & get it to the clerk’s office by election day. For all they know, I could have moved from my (rented) house–which is now inhabited by a cell of Salvadoran preteens making Ebola bombs for ISIS. Well, I did show up for Jury Duty recently; they get the rolls from the list of Registered Voters. But, while the Bailiff swore us in, he didn’t ask for ID. Of course, they are sure all the old farts vote Republican. Which is the reason there’s no ID required for voting by mail. I could be richer, but at least I’m not morally bankrupt. (And I’m not voting Republican, either.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=330) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=332)