# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 340
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6781 "2014-10-21T17:47:35Z")
Shit, I’m a radical progressive, had the snot kicked out of me more than I’ve had hot meals. Progress is never soon enough, never quick enough, but it happens. And besides, I’ve nothing better to do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6782 "2014-10-21T18:07:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > What if it was flipped around? In a hypothetical situation where there _is_ oppositional consensus, is that necessarily (or, at least, seldom otherwise) “weighty”? That, in effect, since there seldom is any such thing as quality of opposition, quantity cannot be judged through quality, either? It’s purely a show of hands? I don’t really follow this question at all. What if WHAT were flipped around? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6783 "2014-10-21T18:14:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t really follow this question at all. What if WHAT were flipped around? Instead of looking at a sole voice articulating dissent with no consensus behind it, what about a situation where there _is_ a broad consensus? If it seldom makes sense to say that there is persuasive weight via meritorious argument from a lone voice, then equally when it comes to situations where there is a broad opposition to settled law, is it accurate to say quality of argument doesn’t enter into the matter for weight purposes either? Hence, a show of hands; it doesn’t matter _what_ the opposition says (in terms of if we can ignore them), just that it exists? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6784 "2014-10-21T18:29:05Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Instead of looking at a sole voice articulating dissent with no consensus behind it, what about a situation where there _is_ a broad consensus? If it seldom makes sense to say that there is persuasive weight via meritorious argument from a lone voice, then equally when it comes to situations where there is a broad opposition to settled law, is it accurate to say quality of argument doesn’t enter into the matter for weight purposes either? Hence, a show of hands; it doesn’t matter _what_ the opposition says (in terms of if we can ignore them), just that it exists? The nature of the beast is that it’s rare for broad consensus to exist in opposition to a decision. Obviously, as years pass, opposing consensus can emerge, but it’s rare (although admittedly not impossible) for broad consensus to immediately exist in opposition to a Court decision. And when those rare examples happen, the Court’s decision is often nullified. Employment Division v. Smith might be such an example: the Court decided that laws neutral on their face to religion could generally survive First Amendment challenge – that is, if a law burdened the exercise of religion but did so incidentally and was facially neutral, it did not violate the First Amendment. The public reaction was strong enough that Congress passed the RFRA, restoring the previous standard and nullifying Smith. Here, of course, with the Voter ID example, we have the interesting phenomenon that the complained-of law already has broad consensus of support, with legislatures, courts, and the public all supporting it by strong margins. So when does quality of argument enter into it? I’d suggest that there is no objective measure of the quality of an argument – I think the arguments against Voter ID are sorely lacking; several commentators here inexplicably believe my arguments in favor of it are less than sufficient. Your question seems to presuppose we can stipulate to the quality of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6785 "2014-10-21T18:33:15Z")
One more time, maybe the hundredth, but one more, triumph of hope over experience. Not about voter id, or the value thereof. About perverting and subverting that value for partisan ends. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6786 "2014-10-21T18:38:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The nature of the beast is that it’s rare for broad consensus to exist in opposition to a decision. Why, if there is no such thing as quality of argument? Do those who decide such things just take a straw poll? What does consensus, on one side of the other, arise from? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6787 "2014-10-21T18:55:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But since we can actually study the outcomes that actually occurred, no, Max, those motives mean diddly and squat. Of course, while debating a proposed new law we do NOT know what actually occurred because nothing has occurred yet. If all states had identical demographics and geography and economics and so forth, and an identical voter law had been implemented in state A but not yet in state B, we might be able to state with some confidence what the result would be in state B, but of course that’s not the case. The laws aren’t identical and the states aren’t identical. Also: it’s unclear to me that we DO really know what outcomes actually occurred, at least with the level of specificity and relevance we’d want for a discussion of this sort. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6788 "2014-10-21T20:01:49Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Why, if there is no such thing as quality of argument? Do those who decide such things just take a straw poll? What does consensus, on one side of the other, arise from? Desired results and opinions that assign different weights to different costs and outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6789 "2014-10-21T20:09:16Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Of course, while debating a proposed new law we do NOT know what actually occurred because nothing has occurred yet. If all states had identical demographics and geography and economics and so forth, and an identical voter law had been implemented in state A but not yet in state B, we might be able to state with some confidence what the result would be in state B, but of course that’s not the case. The laws aren’t identical and the states aren’t identical. Here we’re not debating a proposed new law. We’re debating a law that’s already been passed and been in effect. > [@](#): > > Also: it’s unclear to me that we DO really know what outcomes actually occurred, at least with the level of specificity and relevance we’d want for a discussion of this sort. Sure we have. People on your side of this are desperate to be able to show terrible outcomes. There’s a cadre of highly motivated academics craving substantiating data. The absence of it is highly significant, and the presence of Georgia’s contradictory data a death-knoll. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6790 "2014-10-21T20:14:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here we’re not debating a proposed new law. We’re debating a law that’s already been passed and been in effect. Did you just get that now? > [@](#): > > Sure we have. People on your side of this are desperate to be able to show terrible outcomes. There’s a cadre of highly motivated academics craving substantiating data. The absence of it is highly significant, and the presence of Georgia’s contradictory data a death-knoll. What is Georgia’s contradictory data? Also, _knell_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6791 "2014-10-21T20:34:24Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Did you just get that now? No. > [@](#): > > What is Georgia’s contradictory data? Also, _knell_. Post 4784. And knoted. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6792 "2014-10-21T20:37:35Z")
Let’s get down to the real issue: Many people oppose a voter ID law because it would make it less likely that their side would win elections. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6793 "2014-10-21T20:55:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s get down to the real issue: Many people oppose a voter ID law because it would make it less likely that their side would win elections. Well, duh. Progressives outnumber conservatives, and they are starting to vote in higher numbers. Republicans cannot survive on a level playing field. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6794 "2014-10-21T21:09:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Post 4784. And knoted. From your cite: > [@](#): > > …August 2007: Georgia Secretary of State Karen Handel launches an outreach effort to educate voters about the photo ID law and ways for citizens to obtain a free photo ID… I believe that some very intelligent and alert posters have suggested that voter id could be done right, or could be done wrong. A leading indicator of such a commitment might well be reflected in an outreach program to contact voters and provide id’s. Is this sort of outreach program a common feature of today’s present arguments? News to me, how about you? > [@](#): > > …Georgia Secretary of State Brian Kemp said law has been a success, although he could not identify specific instances of fraud it had prevented… My lawn troll prevents attacks by ice spiders. To date, I have yet to suffer such an attack. So, voter fraud went from immeasurably small to immeasurably smaller. What a triumph! And lest it be forgotten, this was in the days when Justice was still peering over their shoulders, ensuring that the law passed muster. Perhaps they would do the same thing now that the law has been…changed. Perhaps not. In your haste to enlighten us, you overlooked this detail. So, a great deal of fuss and feathers without measurable result, one way or the other. A proud moment, to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6795 "2014-10-21T21:52:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let’s get down to the real issue: Many people oppose a voter ID law because it would make it less likely that their side would win elections. And many others support it because …? Come on, finish the sentence. Problem is, only one approach strengthens democracy, by encouraging participation in it. The other weakens and delegitimizes it. Democracy matters to you, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6796 "2014-10-21T21:54:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Desired results and opinions that assign different weights to different costs and outcomes. So in effect the only thing that matters when it comes to the Supreme Court is that they are on the Supreme Court, for example. You could fill the Supreme Court with morons of the highest caliber, resist the urge to make a law school joke, and because they’re the ones that decide, there would be no reason on quality of argument set forth to say there would be a problem here? Only if there was a popular outcry? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6797 "2014-10-21T21:54:47Z")
Post 4784: > [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain why it hasn’t actually happened? > > [http://www.ajc.com/news/news/despite-voter-id-law-minority-turnout-up-in-georgi/nR2bx/](http://www.ajc.com/news/news/despite-voter-id-law-minority-turnout-up-in-georgi/nR2bx/) > > Same question. I’m the one who refuses to “do the math?” There’s the reality. I DID the math: _Turnout among black and Hispanic voters increased from 2006 to 2010, dramatically outpacing population growth for those groups over the same period._ What is your response? Sow me the figures in any state that validate an actual downturn – not a prediction, not a guess, not an estimate. Voter ID laws have been in place in many states for several election cycles. > > Where’s the actual suppression evidence? > > I love how this question gets met with evasion, throat clearing, and a return to “But…but Republicans are EVIL!” > [@Bricker](#): > > Post 4784. And knoted. Heh. As for Georgia’s numbers: > [@Huffpo](#): > > In 2012, 72.2 percent of registered voters cast ballots in Georgia and 68.4 percent did in North Carolina, a difference of 3.8 percentage points. However, no reputable authority would compare turnout between states by using registered vote turnout. The better measure of turnout is that of eligible voters – people who are citizens, at least 18 years old, and are not disenfranchised by state laws relating to felony convictions. Using this standard methodology, a different pattern emerges. As reported by Dr. Michael McDonald, only 58.7 percent of those eligible to vote in Georgia in 2012 cast ballots compared to 65.2 percent of eligible voters in North Carolina, a difference of 6.5 percentage points in North Carolina’s favor. > > In fact, over time turnout in North Carolina has been pulling ahead of Georgia’s in presidential elections. In 2004 – the last presidential election without Barack Obama on the ballot and before Georgia passed its voter ID law – North Carolina’s turnout was 2.3 percentage points higher than Georgia’s. In 2008, the difference between the states rose 3.4 points, and in 2012, the difference was 6.5. Also, you surely are aware that more than one factor can add into something, right? Georgia isn’t conclusive, because unless you can control for other things that might be driving voter participation, like outrage over voter suppression, you’re going to get misleading results. If you are wearing heavier shoes than the last time you weighed yourself, your weight can be higher, but you might actually have lost weight, right? So if you have voter suppression, at the same time a surge in voter participation happens, you might have an increase in numbers while at the same time clipping off some number of voters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6798 "2014-10-21T22:42:30Z")
Or, alternatively, the state of minority participation was so wretched that it couldn’t help but grow, with the timely intercession of the Justice Dept. Or, maybe at the time, some years back, Republicans still believed in voter fraud, heaven knows they shelter dumber ideas. So, maybe they did it right, did it fair and square, with voter outreach and the whole _magilla._ Got no problem with doing it right. Pretty sure we mentioned that. Once or twice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6799 "2014-10-21T22:57:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Post 4784: > Heh. > > As for Georgia’s numbers: > Also, you surely are aware that more than one factor can add into something, right? Georgia isn’t conclusive, because unless you can control for other things that might be driving voter participation, like outrage over voter suppression, you’re going to get misleading results. > > If you are wearing heavier shoes than the last time you weighed yourself, your weight can be higher, but you might actually have lost weight, right? > > So if you have voter suppression, at the same time a surge in voter participation happens, you might have an increase in numbers while at the same time clipping off some number of voters. Yes. You might. And The Master might have used the Archangel network to psychically force people to “Vote Saxon,” thus taking over the planet. But the fact remains that the only evidence of actual results shows increases, not decreases. You can’t simply speculate: you have the burden of proof. The law already exists. It’s in effect. You have to show proof of the depressed turnout. If the only evidence you have is _increased_ turnout, you can’t sustain your burden by speculating that other causes created an increased turnout and that you’re right anyway. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2014, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6800 "2014-10-21T23:59:05Z")
Can’t he simply argue with a message board curmudgeon without being subject to the restrictions involved in legislation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=339) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=341)