# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 341
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6801 "2014-10-22T00:16:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Can’t he simply argue with a message board curmudgeon without being subject to the restrictions involved in legislation? Burden of proof is a key concept in any debate. Legislation aside, his argument attempting to flout the burden is a fallacy of argument from ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6802 "2014-10-22T02:02:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Burden of proof is a key concept in any debate. Legislation aside, his argument attempting to flout the burden is a fallacy of argument from ignorance. Actually, friend Bricker, you’re missing that your evidence, didn’t actually demonstrate what you said it did. As I explained, it simply doesn’t follow that an increase in the number of minority voters means that the ID had no effect. You haven’t shown that the increase wasn’t lower than it would have been. In any case, there has already been a study: [PolitiFact | Ohio House Speaker William G. Batchelder says Georgia’s voter ID law didn’t dissuade black voters from participating](http://www.politifact.com/ohio/statements/2011/apr/04/bill-batchelder/ohio-house-speaker-william-g-batchelder-says-georg/) It says that there was a suppression effect, but it wasn’t overly on minorities or ethnic groups. I don’t have time to try and track down the actual study, but I’d like to see if age was also a factor, since that would fall disproportionately on the Dems. Again though, we’re talking about one state, where there was a huge get out the vote movement in response to the outrage over voter ID. We can’t know the specific effect in a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6803 "2014-10-22T02:52:45Z")
From Lobohan’s link: > [@](#): > > A recently completed study by University of Georgia political science professor Trey Hood found “credible evidence” that Georgia’s voter ID law did lower turnout among people who lacked government photo IDs before the law took effect, by about one third of a percentage point in 2008 compared to 2004 levels. > > However, the Hood study found no evidence to suggest there was a racial or ethnic component to the dropoff. In fact, the dropoff happened across all ethnic groups with white voters actually seeing the biggest share of that overall third of a percentage point drop in voting because of the law, he said. > > “It doesn’t affect minorities disproportionately – they were impacted the same or slightly less than whites by the law,” said Hood in a phone interview. “From my observation and from my research, it’s sort of a been a wash.” Ok, then. Game over. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6804 "2014-10-22T02:58:04Z")
Which is still more people disenfranchised from voting than have committed voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6805 "2014-10-22T03:26:28Z")
A few tens of thousands of times more, sure, you want to get all picky about it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6806 "2014-10-22T03:31:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Burden of proof is a key concept in any debate… Which is to say, whenever I am arguing with a guy who defends “things as they are”, he gets a free advantage, a little extra boost? I gotta bring the solid evidence, he can just say “neener-neener!”. Well, I guess that’s fair, in a Special Olympics sort of way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6807 "2014-10-22T04:04:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From Lobohan’s link: > > Ok, then. Game over. Can’t disenfranchisement for no good reason be bad enough on its own, even if there isn’t a demonstrable racial angle? You claiming this as a win demonstrates that you’ve lost. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6808 "2014-10-22T12:22:40Z")
Let’s all remember, Bricker is pretending to be too stupid to understand that an increase in the number of voters doesn’t show anything at all. If you have a hundred voters and keep 2 from voting because of voter ID, but an additional six vote because of any other reason, then the voter ID has lowered the number of votes that would have happened. My guess is Bricker’s sudden new adoration of studies doesn’t extend to the GAO report. [http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/220147-gao-voter-id-laws-stunted-turnout-in-kansas-and-tennessee](http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/220147-gao-voter-id-laws-stunted-turnout-in-kansas-and-tennessee) > [@](#): > > Congress’s research arm blamed the two states’ laws requiring that voters show identification on a dip in turnout in 2012 — about 2 percentage points in Kansas and between 2.2 and 3.2 percentage points in Tennessee. Those declines were greater among younger and African-American voters, when compared to turnout in other states. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6809 "2014-10-22T13:05:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Can’t disenfranchisement for no good reason be bad enough on its own, even if there isn’t a demonstrable racial angle? > > You claiming this as a win demonstrates that you’ve lost. Nope. The key point raised again and again has been that these schemes disproportionately disenfranchise minorities and the poor. Every single voting method will discourage some percentage of people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6810 "2014-10-22T13:07:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Let’s all remember, Bricker is pretending to be too stupid to understand that an increase in the number of voters doesn’t show anything at all. > > If you have a hundred voters and keep 2 from voting because of voter ID, but an additional six vote because of any other reason, then the voter ID has lowered the number of votes that would have happened. > > My guess is Bricker’s sudden new adoration of studies doesn’t extend to the GAO report. > > [http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/220147-gao-voter-id-laws-stunted-turnout-in-kansas-and-tennessee](http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/220147-gao-voter-id-laws-stunted-turnout-in-kansas-and-tennessee) Nope, i still like studies. Like reading every word. What happened to the claim that you can’t validly compare turnout between different states? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6811 "2014-10-22T13:07:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Every single voting method will discourage some percentage of people. Some more than others. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6812 "2014-10-22T13:31:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. The key point raised again and again has been that these schemes disproportionately disenfranchise minorities and the poor. > > Every single voting method will discourage some percentage of people. And you dont see a problem with methods that ONLY discourage while ostensibly addressing a problem that doesn’t actually exist? Personally, I don’t care if the disenfranchised group is of a particular race and/or economic class. I figure if left-handed people were known to tend Democrat and there was a way to modify the voting process to discourage them, Republicans would be exploring it. That is the degree of moral bankruptcy on display. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6813 "2014-10-22T14:21:36Z")
> [@](#): > > My guess is Bricker’s sudden new adoration of studies doesn’t extend to the GAO report… **Bricker** ’s steadfast refusal to address the GAO report is because its the GAO. In other court cases, both sides trotted out statistics from reliable sources, for one side, the American Patriotic Eagle Institute for Number Stuff, the other, the Liberal Weenie Consortium. A judge could reasonably call them a wash, biased numbers from biased sources. Then, since those demanding change face a higher standard of evidence than those supporting the way things is, the change side loses. The GAO report is different, it is pure D gummint approved research, amounting to what is, in the technical legal term, “evidence”. (Hope I got that right, I’m a little leery of using arcane legalese like that, don’t want to get smacked with the ruler again…) We got, they don’t, they lose. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6814 "2014-10-22T14:54:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nope. The key point raised again and again has been that these schemes disproportionately disenfranchise minorities and the poor. > > Every single voting method will discourage some percentage of people. Oh, really? You have some evidence to support such a sweeping generalization? Here in the People’s Republic of Minnesota, under a system you describe as “too lax”, your neighbor can attest, under penalty of perjury, that you are you claim to be, that he knows you personally, that you reside where you claim to reside, and that’s that: you register, you vote, badda-boom, badda-bing and you betcha! Even had a super-dooper close elections, a feeding frenzy for lawyers and recounts up the wazoo. Result: Franken won by a butterfly’s eyelash, but he won. Game over. Minnesota has a very respectable voter turnout, right near the top every time. Pubbies tried, even got a referendum on the ballot voter photo id, they lost. So, tell me how this “discourages” anyone. However, you got that first part right. That is the “key point”. And after only 137 pages, the dim light dawns! We are very proud of you, Counselor, and look forward to more progress in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6815 "2014-10-22T15:17:58Z")
Heh, I hadn’t noticed Bricker’s Scalia-moment, there. It should be quoted in all future threads on the topic as opposition to voter ID laws. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6816 "2014-10-22T16:49:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Minnesota has a very respectable voter turnout, right near the top every time. Pubbies tried, even got a referendum on the ballot voter photo id, they lost. > > So, tell me how this “discourages” anyone. Even in Minnesota, some people don’t go to the polls and vote, but would vote if a poll taker came to their door and recorded their vote. Therefore, the scheme of using polling locations discourages some voters. But that’s perfectly okay. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6817 "2014-10-22T16:57:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Even in Minnesota, some people don’t go to the polls and vote, but would vote if a poll taker came to their door and recorded their vote. > > Therefore, the scheme of using polling locations discourages some voters. > > But that’s perfectly okay. The trick is to implement the voting system that discourages the fewest voters. We have reliable estimates for how many would be discouraged by voter ID. If you want to present comparable data for using polling locations as opposed to voting at home, please present it, and it will be apparent which has the most negative impact. Until then, we should base our policies on the known, not the unknown. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6818 "2014-10-22T16:57:14Z")
Drivel. “Discourage” is an active verb, it is an action, not simply a lack of encouragement, but a disparagement. Someone with your penchant for semantic and pedantic nitpickery knows that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6819 "2014-10-22T17:09:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The trick is to implement the voting system that discourages the fewest voters. No, it’s not. We could clearly garner more voters if we funded door-to-door limo service, hot hors d’oeuvres, and entered voters into a drawing where the winner receives a handjob from Lindsay Lohan. The trick is actually to balance the costs against the results > [@](#): > > We have reliable estimates for how many would be discouraged by voter ID. No, we don’t. We have pessimistic predictions whose unreliability was amply shown by the actual data. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6820 "2014-10-22T17:11:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Drivel. “Discourage” is an active verb, it is an action, not simply a lack of encouragement, but a disparagement. Someone with your penchant for semantic and pedantic nitpickery knows that. I’m not advocating taking any action. So how can you possibly say I’m discouraging anything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=340) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=342)