# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 344
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6861 "2014-10-23T17:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > …thread discussing Voter ID laws’ _supposed_ effects on minorities. (Empasis added, more in sorrow than in anger) By which he implies that the data presented herein to that effect is suspect, but without taking on any burden to prove. I had been wondering how he would address the GAO’s report, and apparently, this is it. Can’t prove it, don’t say it. Insinuate it, and slide smoothly away. The boy is as slippery as a catfish in a barrel of motor oil! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6862 "2014-10-23T18:03:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > My father was an immigrant from El Salvador who came here literally with the clothes on his back. No suitcase? Did he walk? Did he sleep in a gutter? Did he have an education? It’s amazing that even when lead to the bright, clear water, you’re too stupid to drink. > [@](#): > > Not really, no. We lived in an apartment in a poor area and went to a school that was a product of its environment. Wow, an apartment. How poor of you. > [@](#): > > No. Not “lucky.” I didn’t “have” the money. I achieved grades that qualified me for a scholarship; I tested out of a years’ worth of freshman courses by getting high scores on AP tests in various subjects, and I worked multiple jobs while in school to pay the balance of my tuition and expenses. Wow, how lucky for you. > [@](#): > > The only way this is “luck” is by expanding the word to reach universal conditions: lucky for me that the atmosphere was 20% oxygen! Lucky for you, that someone of your limited ability could find a way to prosper. > [@](#): > > Same idiotic picture of “luck.” As you yourself said, “Bricker has never admitted fortune has anything to do with success in life. Everything he has achieved has been through hard work and innate talent.” You clearly distinguish between innate talent and luck in that sentence, and now you want to sneak it in as synonymous. If you’re innately talented, that is luck you sickening piece of shit. Innate talent is like height. Having it or not, is based on luck. Jesus you’re not that sharp. > [@](#): > > No. People make luck. That’s why liberals stare dumbly at success. Lacking the wit to understand what drives success, they are unable to distinguish between luck that strikes from the blue and “luck” that masquerades as random beneficence but is in actuality the result of maximizing chances. Hard work and training can maximize chances of success. They don’t introduce opportunity where there is none. > [@](#): > > I remember a friend of mine who lost out on a job because of a flat tire on the day of the interview. “Bad luck!” No – the spare was flat, too, and my friend knew it, but had kept putting off fixing it. Anyone can get a flat. But when you prepare by checking your spare every time you fill the tank, you’re much less likely to get caught by a flat spare on the day your tire goes flat. See above. > [@](#): > > This doesn’t deny the existence of luck. But it’s the simple fact that the vast majority of “bad luck” is poor planning and preparation. I see it all the time. The grasshopper wants the freedom to play in the sun, and not drudge away collecting food for the winter. The grasshopper is entitled to have what everyone has, regardless of the sacrifices others made to get those things. The vast majority. I guess if you see it all the time it must be true. Wait, you think crackers turn into God, in your mouth. Maybe, your perceptions can be clouded by your preconceived notions? Doubtless, much of endemic poverty is based on bad decision making. Because good decision making is a skill, and some people never have the opportunity to learn it. > [@](#): > > I’m sure you were very lucky. I’m certainly luckier than you, because I don’t have to live in the miasma of sneering contempt and unearned arrogance that wafts up from your jowls. \<3 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6863 "2014-10-23T18:12:47Z")
Look, **Lobo,** a man’s personal history is neither here nor there. God knows, he gets on my nerves, but I have my limits. I don’t give a fuck who his father was, how he got here, or whether he defends the comfortable and privileged because he is one of them or just wants to be. Who he is _here_ is all that counts, and that is bad enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6864 "2014-10-23T18:15:43Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Bricker I would be interested in having you critique the following logic. > > 1. The purpose of democratic representative system of government is to determine the person who the majority of those deemed by society to be of eligible to determine policy the hopes that such a person would be most likely to decide in a way that benefits the most people Not entirely accurate. If it were, Election Day would be a required national holiday and voting would be mandatory. The correct statement is: _The purpose of democratic representative system of government is to select the person who the majority of those deemed by society to be eligible \* and interested enough to make a reasonable effort to vote_ and empower him to determine policy in the hopes that such a person would be most likely to decide in a way that benefits the most people.\* > [@](#): > > 1. As such the goal of an election should be as accurately as feasible determine the what percentage of the eligible population desires each candidate. Sure. As long as we remember that “eligible population” means “eligible and interested enough to make a reasonable effort to vote.” > [@](#): > > 1. to that end the optimal result would be one in which every eligible voter who had an opinion had that opinion counted once and only once none who were ineligible had their votes counted. Sure. As long as we remember that “eligible population” means “eligible and interested enough to make a reasonable effort to vote.” > [@](#): > > 1. In choosing among electoral options, the one that is most likely to resemble the result of step 3 should be used. Not quite. Step 3 focuses only on the optimal result _of the election._ But a further optimal result _of the overall system_ must be: that the participants thereof trust that the system is delivering results in accord with its precepts. > [@](#): > > 1. To that end a system offers no increase in feasibility and which eliminates orders of magnitude more legitimate votes, then it prevents illegitimate votes and does so in a manner that is biased in the direction of further reducing the weight of an already underrepresented sub-population of the electorate is against the ideals of democracy, and deserves to be opposed. No – because \*\* “eligible population” means “eligible and interested enough to make a reasonable effort to vote.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6865 "2014-10-23T18:17:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Look, **Lobo,** a man’s personal history is neither here nor there. God knows, he gets on my nerves, but I have my limits. I don’t give a fuck who his father was, how he got here, or whether he defends the comfortable and privileged because he is one of them or just wants to be. > > Who he is _here_ is all that counts, and that is bad enough. I have no doubt his father was a good enough person. Well, if Bricker is any evidence, his father might have been the Red Skull from Marvel Comics. But far from denigrating the father, I’m suggesting that Bricker’s situation in life is the result of thousands upon thousands of things falling just so. And that someone slightly less lucky than his father would have stayed in El Salvador and had a little chance at the American dream. When you attribute all your success to your own hard work, it’s easy look down on the less successful. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6866 "2014-10-23T18:20:47Z")
Merely a suggestion. Freak freely. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6867 "2014-10-23T18:22:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not your argument, but you seem entirely unconcerned about the potentially suppressed votes. Yes, i am – because the so-called “suppression” is not the result of an unreasonable burden. I have previously referred to this as the “voodoo” illustration: if someone were to announce that anyone daring to vote Democratic would be the subject of a voodoo curse, and even if you then proved to me that the Democrats had lost measurable votes based on the fear of this voodoo curse, I would remain unconcerned, because the refusal to cast a vote based on a fear of voodoo is not a concern society is prepared to recognize as reasonable. > [@](#): > > I’m criticizing arguments that have been made by Republican officials, as far as the suppression of votes. And I’m criticizing your lack of concern for voter suppression. I’ve explained why I am not concerned about “suppression” of votes by the operation of Voter ID laws: because votes lost because people can’t get themselves to obtain free IDs are not reasonable. I don’t care what arguments might have been made by others. Let’s say you find a Republican who says, “My chief pride in Voter ID laws is that blacks and poor people won’t be able to vote!” What does that prove? I am defending my arguments, and i am defending the extant Voter ID laws. I am not defending some random shit someone else said. > [@](#): > > I consider the potential suppression of votes far, far more damaging to voter confidence and to our democracy… chiefly, because our nation has a long, inglorious history of suppressing votes (and these votes just so happen to be from mostly the same demographics as those that were suppressed in the past). That’s fascinating, and thanks for sharing your view. But I don’t share it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6868 "2014-10-23T18:26:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Doubtless, much of endemic poverty is based on bad decision making. Because good decision making is a skill, and some people never have the opportunity to learn it. That’s a tautological argument: it defines luck so broadly as to be meaningless. Yes, I’m “lucky” that a meteor didn’t hit my toe and leave me with only nine. The problem with that absurd definition of “luck,” is that you employ the fallacy of equivocation – you use the word to suggest a different sense when you downplay the necessity of ability and work. Thank God liberals aren’t in charge of more stuff. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6869 "2014-10-23T18:26:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …No – because \*\* “eligible population” means “eligible and interested enough to make a reasonable effort to vote.”\*\* Definitely an addition to\*\* Bricker\*\*'s Greatest Hits. Classic! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6870 "2014-10-23T18:33:52Z")
But not my favorite! My favorite is the argument that we don’t know how much voter fraud there is, but there is scads of it. The reason we don’t know is because we don’t have laws to prevent it, therefore, it is not prosecuted. But if we did have such laws, then voter fraud would be prevented, then we _still_ would have no evidence of it. But then it would be because crafty CASA volunteers and activist radical ACORN cadres would be stymied! More leaps of faith than a conclave of Catholic kangaroos! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6871 "2014-10-23T18:40:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No – because \*\* “eligible population” means “eligible and interested enough to make a reasonable effort to vote.”\*\* This gibberish made me laugh. There is an underlying sentiment there I might sympathize with _in another time and place_. Unfortunately, in post-rational America, a better description would be _“eligible and riled up enough by the Fox-Limbaugh-Koch Brothers lies to go vote the niggers and gun-grabbers out of office.”_ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6872 "2014-10-23T18:42:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, i am – because the so-called “suppression” is not the result of an unreasonable burden. Says you. It seems to me to be just another iteration of past attempts to suppress voters of certain stripes. Was paying a poll tax an unreasonable burden? How about literacy tests? “Moral character” tests? It seems to me the same argument could be utilized for these requirements – that a voter who was _truly interested in voting_ would be able to overcome these barriers. > [@](#): > > I don’t care what arguments might have been made by others. Let’s say you find a Republican who says, “My chief pride in Voter ID laws is that blacks and poor people won’t be able to vote!” > > What does that prove? That the motivation of that official is ignoble. If multiple Republican officials have made similar statements, then that’s the beginning of a pattern. If we have a bunch of these statements occurring shortly after a major Republican defeat in which minority turnout was significantly higher than in the past, then we have a pattern that suspiciously aligns with sketchy political motives. Basically, I want to fight the Republican officials who want to suppress black votes. Some of them have outright stated that this is what they want, perhaps in more friendly language. I oppose these politicians. If you support them, I oppose you on this issue. And in my view, it’s a moral issue – just as opposing Jim Crow laws was a moral issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6873 "2014-10-23T18:52:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a tautological argument: it defines luck so broadly as to be meaningless. > > Yes, I’m “lucky” that a meteor didn’t hit my toe and leave me with only nine. And we’re unlucky it didn’t hit your posting finger. 😃 > [@](#): > > The problem with that absurd definition of “luck,” is that you employ the fallacy of equivocation – you use the word to suggest a different sense when you downplay the necessity of ability and work. Not even a little, mon petit Brick. America currently has terrible social mobility: [Socioeconomic mobility in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States) You’re pretty likely to die the same social strata you’re born in. So yes, transcending that limit, like I did, and like you say you did, is pretty lucky. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.[3][19] > [@Bricker](#): > > Thank God liberals aren’t in charge of more stuff. Because of your delusional arrogance and lack of empathy, I find that sentiment unsurprising. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6874 "2014-10-23T18:56:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Basically, I want to fight the Republican officials who want to suppress black votes. Some of them have outright stated that this is what they want, perhaps in more friendly language. I oppose these politicians. If you support them, I oppose you on this issue. And in my view, it’s a moral issue – just as opposing Jim Crow laws was a moral issue. As a thought experiment, if this was an effort by a Democrat to make thIngs a just a teensy bit more difficult for, say, a rural district known to vote Republican (nothing extreme, nothing 99% of sufficiently interested voters couldn’t overcome), would he also be a treasonous cockbag? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6875 "2014-10-23T18:58:50Z")
By the way, how much of Bricker’s success does he attribute to, y’know, God? That’s pretty much the definition of luck. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6876 "2014-10-23T19:31:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > By the way, how much of Bricker’s success does he attribute to, y’know, God? That’s pretty much the definition of luck. Hey, he spends plenty of time grovelling to get that good fortune. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6877 "2014-10-23T19:51:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Says you. It seems to me to be just another iteration of past attempts to suppress voters of certain stripes. > > Was paying a poll tax an unreasonable burden? How about literacy tests? “Moral character” tests? It seems to me the same argument could be utilized for these requirements – that a voter who was _truly interested in voting_ would be able to overcome these barriers. Fortunately, the burden can be quantified by Maisler’s Theorem. No, it can’t: i just made that up. There is no way of objectively quantifying the reasonableness of a burden. So some other system will have to be used to agree upon a solution, since you and I disagree about the reasonableness of the burden at hand. And luckily we already have such a system, and it has been used to reach the current solution. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6878 "2014-10-23T19:52:06Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Hey, he spends plenty of time grovelling to get that good fortune. Well, lucky for him he was born Catholic so his groveling will get results, not like them hellbound heathens what ain’t got Mother Church lookin’ out for 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6879 "2014-10-23T19:53:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As a thought experiment, if this was an effort by a Democrat to make thIngs a just a teensy bit more difficult for, say, a rural district known to vote Republican (nothing extreme, nothing 99% of sufficiently interested voters couldn’t overcome), would he also be a treasonous cockbag? Unlike liberals, I am governed by standards. If this were an effort that impacted conservatives, I’d feel precisely the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/6880 "2014-10-23T19:53:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, lucky for him he was born Catholic so his groveling will get results, not like them hellbound heathens what ain’t got Mother Church lookin’ out for 'em. “Well, they only have themselves to blame for burning in Hell. The pope was out there with the truth the whole time.” —\* Libertarian Jesus\* [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=343) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=345)