# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 357
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7121 "2014-10-27T15:59:29Z")
Neither are the Republicans, for that matter. If what they really wanted was voter ID laws because voter confidence, but without any such dire implications and effects on voter turnout, they could have done it easily, with the wholehearted support of us Stalinists. They didn’t. Because they didn’t want to. But, anyway, I guess its time to move on, eh, Counselor? So, we can pretty much forget about that huge load of posts, because we changed the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7122 "2014-10-27T16:19:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I did. > > Naturally, **Kimstu** did not answer. Because your question comes across as pointlessly rhetorical. Of course no one\* wishes to break the system because we don’t like a current set of outcomes. See my post above. We’re arguing that the American legal system has produced bad results, not that the system itself is bad or should be overthrown. > [@](#): > > Even liberals aren’t dumb enough to plainly say what they plainly wish to so. This strikes me as classic projection, unless you’re Mike Turazi. - If it makes you feel better: “I, **parthol** , do proclaim that none of my arguments, even including ones where I might use “You can’t…” as a euphemism for “You shouldn’t…”, should be construed as wishing for extralegal means to achieve my desired political ends.” I’m certain that 95%+ of the liberal posters in this thread feel the same way. It is, frankly, bizarre that you would think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7123 "2014-10-27T16:22:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I did. > > Naturally, **Kimstu** did not answer. > > Even liberals aren’t dumb enough to plainly say what they plainly wish to so. I see no evidence that this is what **Kimstu** or any other liberal here wishes to do. If the question was ignored, it’s because it’s akin to “what dictator do you want ruling the lives of everyone on earth?” – and pretty much unanswerable. It’s perfectly reasonable to criticize the morality of such legislative action, and that’s what I see in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7124 "2014-10-27T16:43:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I did. > > Naturally, **Kimstu** did not answer. > > Even liberals aren’t dumb enough to plainly say what they plainly wish to so. Well, I think you’re completely wrong about that, but I doubt I’m going to convince you. Suffice it to say that, other than abortion, I’m much more likely to agree with you on issues of policy than I am to agree with **Kimstu**. But I would never accuse her of wanting to subvert the democratic or judicial process. That’s more **Der Trihs** territory. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7125 "2014-10-27T17:07:25Z")
> [@Parthol](#): > > - If it makes you feel better: “I, **parthol** , do proclaim that none of my arguments, even including ones where I might use “You can’t…” as a euphemism for “You shouldn’t…”, should be construed as wishing for extralegal means to achieve my desired political ends.” > > I’m certain that 95%+ of the liberal posters in this thread feel the same way. It is, frankly, bizarre that you would think otherwise. For what it’s worth, I have no desire to subvert democracy to gain my political goals either. The value of getting what I want would be neutered by the malus of no democratic process; more than that, democracy **is** one of my political goals, anyway. Also the bizarre part. That really does seem like the best word. It’s… weird that \*\*Bricker \*\*actually thinks this. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7126 "2014-10-27T17:12:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, but mentioning the number of voters supposedly “prevented” (by voodoo) from voting without mentioning the actual justification for the increased barrier is a push poll. Obviously this thread has now totally moved on from this point, and this was only ever a tangent to begin with, but I do want to respond here… my point is not “here is specific phrasing that is good, here is specific phrasing that is bad”. It’s that I think you are vastly oversimplifying the matter if you think that a simple poll question is automatically good and meaningful, while a complex poll question is very likely a “push poll”, and there’s some firm dividing line between them. In fact, I think it’s a complicated and fascinating topic. For instance, there have been many recent exchanges like this “70% of people oppose Obamacare!” “yeah, but half of those only oppose it because it doesn’t go far enough!”, etc. Basically, public opinion polls about complex topic are generally meaningless, PARTICULARLY when it’s a complex topic of the form “here’s a thing we’d all like to do, BUT there are legitimate also reasons why we should not do it”. In cases like that it’s always going to be easy but deceptive to just ask “should we do X” as a poll all by itself and try to conflate that result with actual support for a specific implementation. I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that the issue that Republicans chose to press on is one in which public opinion will be on their side because, in a vacuum, it’s a good idea. If you’re going to try to do something underhanded you’re much better off doing it under cover of something that people would generally and reasonably support. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7127 "2014-10-27T17:23:34Z")
Taking a step back for a second (I wonder how many times I’ve taken a step back this thread?), I think that one thing Bricker is not acknowledging (at least, not sufficiently) is that the honestly-held and not-prima-facie-ridiculous belief shared by most of us on the other side of the argument from him is not just that these laws are bad or immoral or racist or bad-public-policy, but that they fall into the category of things that should NOT simply be majority rules. 51% of Arkansas voters before _Brown v. Board_ should not have been able to vote for segregated schools, and 51% of voters in Texas today (or 51% of members of the Texas legislature today) should not be able to impose discriminatory voter ID laws. So there is a sense in which Bricker is correct, in that I _am_ refusing to accept the results of a democratic majority vote… but not in a “I don’t care what the voters say, I am right, my opinion should be enacted just because I say so” sense, rather in a “this is a matter with implications of discrimination and removal of civil rights, and therefore should enjoy additional legal and constitutional protections”. At that point, if all the levels of the court rule against me, my opinion (barring further data being added to the discussion) is still going to be that the courts _should_ have intervened. Again, Bricker might (bizarrely) choose to interpret that _should_ as me just wanting to have my way because. But in fact it’s some combination of “given my legal understanding of the constitution, I believe the courts ruled erroneously” and “I acknowledge that constitutional protections do not currently cover laws of this sort, but I think that we would be better off and fairer as a nation if they did”. Neither of which can meaningfully be described the way Bricker continues to describe the liberal position in this thread. If someone was discussing a civil rights case before _Brown v. Board_ that ended up supporting segregation, there are any numbers of ways they could phrase something like “That decision should not have been made that way…” or “there should not be segregated schools” that would clearly NOT be arguing for the immediate overthrow of all democratic institutions in the US, but WOULD be saying that the extant state of constitutional law was immoral and antithetical to root American values… which we generally now agree to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7128 "2014-10-27T17:45:51Z")
Bricker must have been a truly awesome poster once upon a time if he still has even a neutral reputation now, since he’s been just awful these past few years. Heck, just in these last 24 hours he’s abandoned all reason to fight cartoon liberals only he can see. I predict a **december** -ish fate for him; he’ll become so determined to once and for all prove that liberals are bad that he’ll fabricate or otherwise misleadingly present some gotcha bait for them but instead of being hailed as an exposer of folly, it’ll be bye-bye Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7129 "2014-10-27T17:53:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Bricker must have been a truly awesome poster once upon a time if he still has even a neutral reputation now, since he’s been just awful these past few years. Heck, just in these last 24 hours he’s abandoned all reason to fight cartoon liberals only he can see. Interesting simultaneity of thought. I just came to post that Bricker suddenly reminds me of [Captain Queeg in _The Caine Mutiny_ who is received well at a court martial hearing until he breaks down and shows his true self](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-95QqBXLG2I). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7130 "2014-10-27T18:32:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Taking a step back for a second (I wonder how many times I’ve taken a step back this thread?), I think that one thing Bricker is not acknowledging (at least, not sufficiently) is that the honestly-held and not-prima-facie-ridiculous belief shared by most of us on the other side of the argument from him is not just that these laws are bad or immoral or racist or bad-public-policy, but that they fall into the category of things that should NOT simply be majority rules. 51% of Arkansas voters before _Brown v. Board_ should not have been able to vote for segregated schools, and 51% of voters in Texas today (or 51% of members of the Texas legislature today) should not be able to impose discriminatory voter ID laws. So there is a sense in which Bricker is correct, in that I _am_ refusing to accept the results of a democratic majority vote… but not in a “I don’t care what the voters say, I am right, my opinion should be enacted just because I say so” sense, rather in a “this is a matter with implications of discrimination and removal of civil rights, and therefore should enjoy additional legal and constitutional protections”. At that point, if all the levels of the court rule against me, my opinion (barring further data being added to the discussion) is still going to be that the courts _should_ have intervened. Again, Bricker might (bizarrely) choose to interpret that _should_ as me just wanting to have my way because. But in fact it’s some combination of “given my legal understanding of the constitution, I believe the courts ruled erroneously” and “I acknowledge that constitutional protections do not currently cover laws of this sort, but I think that we would be better off and fairer as a nation if they did”. Neither of which can meaningfully be described the way Bricker continues to describe the liberal position in this thread. So, let me wrap my head around this. I read the above, and I “bizarrely” interpret it as hearing you say that even if the legislature passed the laws in accordance with our democratic processes, and the courts at the highest level judged those laws are NOT violative of our constitutional guarantees, you still believe that the laws should be removed, somehow, But you’re not arguing against the representative democratic system we use. I honestly have no idea how to reconcile those two claims. And that’s why I ask: what are you saying SHOULD happen? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7131 "2014-10-27T18:41:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t see anything in **Kimstu** ’s quote that can be at all construed to mean “ **Kimstu** gets to decide these things.” No, Kimstu has a habit of declaring that her opinions are indeed facts. According to her, “commerce exists for the good of the public as a whole”. That’s simply not true. But a moderator said it was OK for her to post like that. So much for fighting ignorance. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17835186&postcount=252](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17835186&postcount=252) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7132 "2014-10-27T18:48:23Z")
Trololol! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7133 "2014-10-27T18:48:42Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > No, Kimstu has a habit of declaring that her opinions are indeed facts. > > According to her, “commerce exists for the good of the public as a whole”. That’s simply not true. > > But a moderator said it was OK for her to post like that. So much for fighting ignorance. > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17835186&postcount=252](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17835186&postcount=252) Thanks for joining to tell us that! ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7134 "2014-10-27T18:50:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Thanks for joining to tell us that! It gets even better later in that same post. “Nanny Gummint is entitled to stick her nose in to make sure the public is being usefully served.” Again her opinion, but stated as if were fact. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7135 "2014-10-27T18:53:10Z")
You are the very specialest of special snowflakes, aintcha? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7136 "2014-10-27T18:53:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It gets even better later in that same post. > > “Nanny Gummint is entitled to stick her nose in to make sure the public is being usefully served.” > > Again her opinion, but stated as if were fact. In general, states have plenary legislative power, so Nanny Gummint is, in fact, entitled to stick her nose in. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7137 "2014-10-27T18:54:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In general, states have plenary legislative power, so Nanny Gummint is, in fact, entitled to stick her nose in. Does the federal government have the same power? Under the Constitution, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7138 "2014-10-27T19:00:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Does the federal government have the same power? Under the Constitution, I mean. You mean the power to do things intended to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7139 "2014-10-27T19:05:07Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You mean the power to do things intended to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity? No, that’s not what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7140 "2014-10-27T19:08:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, let me wrap my head around this. > > I read the above, and I “bizarrely” interpret it as hearing you say that even if the legislature passed the laws in accordance with our democratic processes, and the courts at the highest level judged those laws are NOT violative of our constitutional guarantees, you still believe that the laws should be removed, somehow, > > But you’re not arguing against the representative democratic system we use. > > I honestly have no idea how to reconcile those two claims. > > And that’s why I ask: what are you saying SHOULD happen? Really? You have no idea? You cannot stretch your imagination to include “The laws should be removed by 1) Educating/convincing the people that the passed laws were poor, and thereby 2) Getting different legislators elected who will overturn previous legislation and pass new laws.” Because that’s implicit in pretty much everything that gets said on a message board like this, when discussing laws one side doesn’t like. I still find it odd that you can’t see or acknowledge that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=356) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=358)