# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 386
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7701 "2014-11-15T19:51:13Z")
Dirty political tricks in Chicago. Who would have guessed? I’d be interested in seeing how one could craft legislation to prevent robocalls (that are already illegal). Does anyone care to make a suggestion? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7702 "2014-11-15T19:58:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > {…} I’d be interested in seeing how one could craft legislation to prevent robocalls (that are already illegal). Does anyone care to make a suggestion? Clearly we should require some kind of ID for people calling . . . a caller ID? 😃 CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2014, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7703 "2014-11-15T22:56:29Z")
For what it’s worth, these are the kinds of shenanigans I can see justifying taking away someone’s franchise, indeed banning them from any participation in the electoral process. General felonies… justification is lacking. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2014, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7704 "2014-11-16T07:00:46Z")
Yeah, well what about the half a million fake registrations ACORN did in New Mexico? Maybe it was four hundred thousand and in Arizona. But it was a lot and it was somewhere! Anyway, the laws must have worked, because I don’t recall hearing a single Republican complain about voter fraud this time. Owe them a debt of gratitude, what with that and stopping Ebola. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7705 "2014-11-17T21:42:19Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > So the options are “lawyer-approved robot language” or “lying liar,” with no middle ground? You must hate poetry then. I’m not normally one to go around listing formal fallacies, but this is a steaming, stinking pile of excluded middle if I’ve ever seen one. > > I will admit that the rhetorical expression “exactly the way” was _not as carefully considered as my premises or conclusion_ and that it _may have been hyperbolic_. Now address my fucking point or admit you’ve got nothing. Your fucking point was tied directly to your lie: > [@Reyemile](#): > > Back on topic, while Republicans fight tooth and nail to enforce voter ID laws that will prevent perhaps a half-dozen false votes per election cycle, [real fraud denies thousands of people the opportunity to vote](http://atlantadailyworld.com/2014/11/12/malicious-election-day-robocalls-prompt-investigation-and-headache-for-illinois-gop/) in Chicago. True, the scam robocalls are already illegal (as is in-person voter fraud), and true, the perpetrators will likely end up in jail (as would anyone committing in-person voter fraud). But unlike in-person voter fraud, these robocalls 1) _actually happened_, 2) were organized by activists _affiliated with a major political party_, and 3) allowed a small group of people to steal _orders of magnitude_ more votes than they conceivably could have with a dedicated in-person scam. > > In a sense, this is an acid test for the legitimacy of Republican claims. These indefensible actions damage the integrity of elections in exactly the way that Republicans claim cannot be allowed. Will they shift their efforts to preventing this type of devastating fraud, crafting legislation to make it harder for a few rogue agents to disrupt and entire election? Or will they reveal their true colors by continuing to focus on the poor and minority votes who vote for the opposition, while praying that the Chicago incident fades from the public memory as quickly as possible? > > Hint: this is a stupid question and the second answer is obviously correct. Here’s the only part of your screed that doesn’t involve the claim that was a lie: > [@](#): > > these robocalls 1) _actually happened_, 2) were organized by activists _affiliated with a major political party_, and 3) allowed a small group of people to steal _orders of magnitude_ more votes than they conceivably could have with a dedicated in-person scam. Yes, they actually happened. Yes, they were organized by GOP-leaning activists. But no, they didn’t steal any votes. At best, they flumoxxed some very brain dead people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7706 "2014-11-17T21:52:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At best, they flumoxxed some very brain dead people. That must be a very comforting fiction for you, along with assuming the burdens are “minimal.” Just decide that only stupid or lazy people will be affected, and then disregard them on that basis. Huzzah. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7707 "2014-11-17T22:48:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, they actually happened. Yes, they were organized by GOP-leaning activists. But no, they didn’t steal any votes. At best, they flumoxxed some very brain dead people. Except that the claim is not that some people received robocalls, were flummoxed, and then failed to vote. It’s that some people received robocalls, were flummoxed, failed to show up to do their job as “election judges” (which I assume is the people who help run the polling station, based on context), leading to extremely long lines, presumably leading to OTHER people not voting, because they had to go to work or had to go pick their kids up from school, or what have you. “Election officials say the calls are the reason why as many as 2,000 election judges quit or failed to show on Election Day, leading to long lines and mishaps at the polls.” I actually think that this kind of thing is, in isolation, fairly comparable to badly-written voter ID laws. It may not make it IMPOSSIBLE for any single person to vote, but if it significantly adds difficulty for some but not all voters, demographically tilted in a way likely to favor one party, it is clearly antidemocratic. The difference, of course, is that there is not a concerted legal and political effort by Republicans in many states to implement deceptive robocalls, so it’s just a dirty trick, rather than an ongoing attempt at quasi-disenfranchisement. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7708 "2014-11-17T22:53:05Z")
How very thoughtful! Has anyone thanked them? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7709 "2014-11-17T23:13:44Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Except that the claim is not that some people received robocalls, were flummoxed, and then failed to vote. It’s that some people received robocalls, were flummoxed, failed to show up to do their job as “election judges” (which I assume is the people who help run the polling station, based on context), leading to extremely long lines, presumably leading to OTHER people not voting, because they had to go to work or had to go pick their kids up from school, or what have you. > > “Election officials say the calls are the reason why as many as 2,000 election judges quit or failed to show on Election Day, leading to long lines and mishaps at the polls.” > I actually think that this kind of thing is, in isolation, fairly comparable to badly-written voter ID laws. It may not make it IMPOSSIBLE for any single person to vote, but if it significantly adds difficulty for some but not all voters, demographically tilted in a way likely to favor one party, it is clearly antidemocratic. > > The difference, of course, is that there is not a concerted legal and political effort by Republicans in many states to implement deceptive robocalls, so it’s just a dirty trick, rather than an ongoing attempt at quasi-disenfranchisement. Yes. And as it’s a dirty trick, it in no way is analogous to the execution of properly-formed policy. No one is arguing that the action taken should be legal. It’s not, and the malefactors will be dealt with by process of the law. And I certainly agree with that outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7710 "2014-11-17T23:30:54Z")
I’m not sure what the deal actually was - to manage elections requires workers, to be sure, but was it up to the Republicans (and Democrats, too, I presume) to provide those workers? I can get why the parties would want _observers_ at the polls, but how is this not an irresistible temptation for a party to promise to provide hundreds of election judges in particular venues, then decide those venues are likely to vote for the opposing party and pull them by any means, fair or foul? Perhaps I’ve been spoiled by my country’s determinedly nonpartisan policies. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7711 "2014-11-17T23:57:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. And as it’s a dirty trick, it in no way is analogous to the execution of properly-formed policy. No one is arguing that the action taken should be legal. It’s not, and the malefactors will be dealt with by process of the law. > > And I certainly agree with that outcome. Voting under a false name is **also** already illegal, with malefactors who will be dealt with by process of law. Republicans are proposing onerous and discriminatory ID legislation to prevent the crime of in-person voter fraud **before** this (largely fictional and incredibly inefficient) crime could affect the ballot. What similar steps will the Republicans take to make **this** form of vote-stealing harder to commit **in advance**? p.s. Nice job dodging the fact that you were **completely** fucking wrong about the nature of the robocalls, **Bricker**. Next time you accuse me of lying three times without any supporting evidence, at least do me the courtesy of reading what I posted first. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7712 "2014-11-18T00:33:12Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Voting under a false name is **also** already illegal, with malefactors who will be dealt with by process of law. Nope. As has been mentioned once or twice or eighty-four times before in this very thread, without Voter ID, there’s no real way to prosecute voting under a false name. Ramon Cue is the example that you might remember. If he’s telling the truth, then someone voted under his name, and there’s no way to find that person. > [@](#): > > Republicans are proposing onerous and discriminatory ID legislation to prevent the crime of in-person voter fraud **before** this (largely fictional and incredibly inefficient) crime could affect the ballot. What similar steps will the Republicans take to make **this** form of vote-stealing harder to commit **in advance**? Not onerous or discriminatory. What steps are you proposing? > [@](#): > > p.s. Nice job dodging the fact that you were **completely** fucking wrong about the nature of the robocalls, **Bricker**. Next time you accuse me of lying three times without any supporting evidence, at least do me the courtesy of reading what I posted first. What the hell are you talking about? Nothing I said was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7713 "2014-11-18T00:47:25Z")
He said what? That you were wrong? The Devil you say! Let me scroll up here, can’t quite believe the temerity…by OG! He did! He did say exactly that! ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7714 "2014-11-18T00:48:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But no, they didn’t steal any votes. At best, they flumoxxed some very brain dead people. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Except that the claim is not that some people received robocalls, were flummoxed, and then failed to vote. It’s that some people received robocalls, were flummoxed, failed to show up to do their job as “election judges” > [@Bricker](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? Nothing I said was wrong. You’ve stopped even reading, haven’t you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7715 "2014-11-18T00:53:31Z")
Now, about this robocall shit, I dunno. I mean, none of them got suspicious, put in a call to check? Something’s not right here but I’m not quite sure yet what it is. And besides, we only have secondary sources here, so no one is obliged to accept any of it. Any of you guys election judges? Or braindead? I mean, without primary sources, we got nothing… Everybody knows that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7716 "2014-11-18T01:18:21Z")
I thought the brain dead people who got flummoxed were the election workers who thought they shouldn’t work that day based on the robocalls. If Bricker was instead referring to voters, then yes, he was wrong. And quite duh-wrong at that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7717 "2014-11-18T01:44:29Z")
Well, sure, but who the fuck is that naive? In _Chicago_? Far be it from me to underestimate the treachery of the Republican Party, but this just doesn’t hang together. Something is missing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7718 "2014-11-18T01:47:21Z")
Heck, I don’t get why they’d fuck with their own supporters/volunteers. Is their thinking really _that_ short term? ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7719 "2014-11-18T03:39:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I thought the brain dead people who got flummoxed were the election workers who thought they shouldn’t work that day based on the robocalls. If Bricker was instead referring to voters, then yes, he was wrong. And quite duh-wrong at that. I don’t see any logical way to reconcile a dismissive comment that the calls “flummoxed some braindead people” with the knowledge that these “braindead people” caused late poll openings and 7-hour delays by not being present to do their jobs. But maybe there’s something I’m not seeing. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/7720 "2014-11-18T03:58:08Z")
If these election workers are so braindead that they’re fooled by phony phone calls why should we think that they won’t also be fooled by phony IDs? CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=385) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=387)