# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/61 "2012-06-12T22:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > …but are there really places where you can just walk in off the street and not be checked for registration against some sort of ID? Sort of. Here in the People’s Republic of Minnesota, if you have some minimal documentation, like a utility bill, and a registered voter who will vouch for you and attest, under penalty of perjury, that Joe Jones is in fact Joe Jones and, to your knowledge, a US citizen, you’re in. Works fine here, but, well, its Minnesota. People here are weird. Calm, bland, but weird. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/62 "2012-06-12T22:27:48Z")
Different conservatives have different reasons for finding voter suppression fun. Bricker thinks that anyone who doesn’t have ID is not worthy of voting. That it was trivially easy for him to get an ID, so everyone else who doesn’t have one is lazy and should take their medicine. Clothy, well he’s just a mad-dog who wouldn’t know a fact if it were balls-deep in his heiny. I’m sure the gamut of conservative thought expands further than those two, but they are typical. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/63 "2012-06-12T22:31:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s sloppy and biased to attempt to equate “people who can’t be arsed to get themselves some form of ID” with “people who don’t have some form of ID”. Not having an ID doesn’t automatically mean you’re lazy or apathetic. What does it mean then? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/64 "2012-06-12T22:31:40Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > What does it mean then? It means you don’t have an ID. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/65 "2012-06-12T22:46:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Except all the studies show that even when you spend $900,000 to subsidize fresh fruits and veggies, they don’t buy it anyway. > > So should we extend that analogy to voting? Who spent $0.9million to subsidize what? And if it’s on a state or federal level, you know as well as I do that’s effectively nothing. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/66 "2012-06-12T22:56:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Emphasis added. Uh, you **do** realize that legally requiring voters to present an identity document in order to vote **in person** will not by itself have any effect on deliberate attempts at voter-identity theft using **absentee** ballots, right? > > The example of a prankster deliberately registering his dog to vote is irrelevant, as is your zero-evidence example of non-citizen voting. > > Yes, realistically speaking, voter fraud is not a problem in our electoral system. There simply aren’t significant numbers of people fraudulently using other people’s identities in order to vote. > > There **are** , however, significant numbers of registered voters who don’t have official DMV-issued identity documents, and those are the people that the Republicans would like to keep from voting, since they’re more likely to vote Democratic. > > I’m not denying that it’s a pretty clever scheme, as political shenanigans go. But there is no plausible cover for it in the form of genuine evidence that we **need** any voter identity document system to rein in alleged voter fraud. Someone said there were “No” problems. If that was true, 4 politicians would not have been convicted of Voter Fraud The question is, how much of a problem is there. As one article said, it is impossible to tell because the voter registration system is too flawed to track. So any assertion that there is no problem is nothing more then kool aid decision making. There very well may be no problem, but we cannot tell if one exists or not because of the system we have. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/67 "2012-06-12T22:58:14Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > What does it mean then? It means the 6 fingered man has a bogus ID. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/68 "2012-06-12T23:02:17Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > It means the 6 fingered man has a bogus ID. “Count Rougen, stop, you don’t need ID. We all recognize you by your regal bearing… (glances at glove).” ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/69 "2012-06-12T23:03:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > “Count Rougen, stop, you don’t need ID. We all recognize you by your regal bearing… (glances at glove).” You may refer to me by my given name. Wesley. Otherwise, you can call me the Dread Pirate Roberts, or sir. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/70 "2012-06-12T23:26:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not anti-democracy. You’re lying. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/71 "2012-06-12T23:30:10Z")
> [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > Can someone point to which state we’re looking at here, since the OP hasn’t bothered with cites? > > Because in FL, you can use a lot of different forms of ID. It doesn’t matter. This is a nationwide fight. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/72 "2012-06-12T23:37:05Z")
[http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/12/498039/gop-front-group-suing-states-to-force-voter-purges/](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/12/498039/gop-front-group-suing-states-to-force-voter-purges/) From our good friends at _ThinkProgress_ (Good folks, maybe a bit too centrist, but what the hell…) > [@](#): > > A Tea Party group is suing states to try to purge their voter rolls before November’s election. True the Vote, an arm of the King Street Patriots, has filed a suit against the state of Indiana, alleging that the state has poor “list maintenance” of its voters. > This suit kicks off a series of state-focused attempts by True the Vote, serving as a co-plaintiff with the conservative “watchdog” group Judicial Watch, to limit voter turnout this election season… So, how its gonna be is, if Obama wins, it was voter fraud. If Obama loses, it was the overwhelming majority of real Americans turning back the huge Democrat advantage in felons and illegal aliens. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/73 "2012-06-12T23:50:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Thanks for linking to a page about voter registration purges . . . I include [those](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653037) in the Pitting. I also Pit [“caging lists”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caging_list) and [“True the Vote.”](http://www.thenation.com/blog/167648/true-vote-still-out-screw-vote) All American vote-suppressors and all their tactics are in the barrel here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/74 "2012-06-12T23:54:35Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > [Albuquerque dog becomes registered voter](http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S2518479.shtml?cat=500) > Posted at: 02/29/2012 10:16 PM > By: Danielle Todesco, KOB Eyewitness News 4 > An Albuquerque man says he successfully registered his dog to vote in Bernalillo County. > The dog owner said he saw a voter registration booth on the University of New Mexico’s campus a few weeks ago and decided to see how easy it would be to register his dog to vote. > He said he was trying to expose the problems with the registration system. He said he just received the dog’s voter registration card in the mail Wednesday, and it was way too easy. > [@3\_20\_59\_or\_bust](#): > > For study: > > [Top Ten Voter Fraud Myths Debunked.](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/the-voter-fraud-myth-debunked-20120612) Hm. Even has a bit about dogs. > [@](#): > > **Voting by Dogs** > > That is, people are voting in their dogs’ names. As in: ‘Prank Lands Voter in the Doghouse,’ 'Woman Registers Her Dog to Vote; Prosecutors Growl." > > **The truth:** Brennan turned up only nine specific reports of dogs found on the voter rolls. In six of the nine, the dogs were put on the rolls by people trying to make a point – that’s it’s possible to place a dog on the voter rolls. “Which is to say, if people no longer registered dogs to show that dogs are on the rolls, dogs would no longer be on the rolls.” No wonder this kind of fraud rarely happens: To get a dog on the rolls, you need to risk up to 30 years imprisonment on federal charges alone. All for one vote! > > **Typical case:** There is no typical case. Brennan found only two cases – ever – of ballots being submittted in the name of a dog: a ballot cast by “Duncan MacDonald” in 2006 and 2007 (but labeled “VOID” and signed with a paw print), and another cast by “Raku Bowman” in 2003 in a local election in Venice, California. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/75 "2012-06-12T23:58:25Z")
This is the most infuriating subject I can think of. I have no idea what kind of utopia you all live in but to say that voter fraud does not exist or isn’t a problem is ridiculous. I grew up hearing stories of Boss Frank Hague running the state from his throne in Jersey City. The election night mantra was “Hudson County has not been heard from” as he held back the results to wait to see how many corpses needed to get to the polls to sway the statewide or national elections. Things have improved slightly since. I welcome anything that cuts down on the fraud and corruption that is absolutely happening every fucking election. I mentioned it jokingly earlier but fuck it. Getting an ID is not an onerous task. The only people I run into that don’t currently have an form of ID are illegal immigrants. Even they have ID, but usually from their home country. Its nearly impossible to live in this state without a government ID. It certainly makes things difficult. To say that having to present an ID that nearly 100% of the adults already have is an insurmountable obstacle is so far out of the realm of reality it makes my head spin. Its as if some people want to vilify a simple ID check to promote their own agenda. I hope that they are just misguided and not in favor of voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/76 "2012-06-13T00:00:03Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > That was just a quick search. Who said there is “no” problem? A [scientific study](http://www.bradblog.com/Docs/EAC_VoterFraud_DraftReport.pdf) which [the W Admin](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418643) [tried hard to suppress](http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/abuses_of_science/election-panel-delays-edits.html) not too long ago. This was the same Admin that spent two terms hunting for voter fraud, [fired USAGs who wouldn’t play along,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy) and at the end still couldn’t come up with a dozen cases nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/77 "2012-06-13T00:02:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > This is the most infuriating subject I can think of. I have no idea what kind of utopia you all live in but to say that voter fraud does not exist or isn’t a problem is ridiculous. I grew up hearing stories of Boss Frank Hague running the state from his throne in Jersey City. The election night mantra was “Hudson County has not been heard from” as he held back the results to wait to see how many corpses needed to get to the polls to sway the statewide or national elections. You are **not** talking about “voter fraud.” You are talking about [this.](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/pictures/the-voter-fraud-myth-debunked-20120612/fraud-by-election-officials-0605561) > [@](#): > > **Fraud by Election Officials** > > The truth: Fraud by election officials does happen, but, like vote-buying, it is _not_ a form of _voter fraud._ If election officials are willing to break the law, rules designed to restrict voting won’t stop them. > > Typical case: Not applicable, since, again, this is not a kind of _voter fraud._ ---
**Author:** ![MissTake](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misstake/32/3189_2.png) [@MissTake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MissTake)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/78 "2012-06-13T00:03:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Sort of. Here in the People’s Republic of Minnesota, if you have some minimal documentation, like a utility bill, and a registered voter who will vouch for you and attest, under penalty of perjury, that Joe Jones is in fact Joe Jones and, to your knowledge, a US citizen, you’re in. Works fine here, but, well, its Minnesota. People here are weird. Calm, bland, but weird. Which is a hell of a lot easier than obtaining a state ID: 1. Obtain a certified copy of your birth certificate. If you do not have a valid form of other ID (DL, military ID, state ID, passport), you have to have someone attest to your identity. You can do this by mail, but it can take a few weeks. It’s $26 for a copy. 2. Once you have your certified copy along with some other authorized ID (marriage certificate, valid passport, carry and conceal permit…), in Hennepin County (Minneapolis) you have to go to the office in Midtown. If you live, say, in Hamel without bus service? Have fun getting there. Hours are M-F 9am-6pm. State ID’s are $18. It took a total of three days and at least 70 miles on the car for TheKid to get a state issued ID. I am okay with needing a picture ID to vote, if it was free and easily accessible for all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/79 "2012-06-13T00:03:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: How much of the rest of the developed world does not also legally **mandate** either universal adult voter registration, or specific identity documents for all adults, or both? Well, yeah. That’s the same proposition. It’s seen as some huge burden in the US, but it’s SOP in most other developed countries. So, I don’t see why it should be such a big deal here. > [@](#): > > Most of the rest of the developed world keeps stricter tabs on its population than we do I don’t think this is true, but I’m willing to be educated. I’m basically talking about Western Europe here. Do countries like France, the UK or Germany keep stricter tabs on their populations? In what way? Also, I envision this done in the US at the state level, not at the federal level. But it could be at the federal level if that made more sense. > [@](#): > > If American Exceptionalism is going to decree that we shouldn’t automatically register all adults to vote or automatically provide all adults with a valid citizen/voter identity document, then requiring individual citizens to go to the trouble and expense of acquiring an identity document in order to vote smells a bit poll-tax-y to me. It clearly favors the more privileged and wealthy section of society which is more likely to possess such an identity document already. I don’t understand the distinction you’re making between “automatically” registering all adults and requiring individuals to register. > [@](#): > > But it **is** rather refreshing to see Republicans arguing in favor of an issue with a line of reasoning that basically boils down to “well, the Europeans do it, so why shouldn’t we?” Don’t see **that** very often. I’m not a Republican. But considering the level of services that our government is providing these days, a single ID for when you avail yourself of those services seems to make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/80 "2012-06-13T00:07:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Bah. You lost. It’s legal, it has widespread support, and it’s happening. It’s not anti-democracy. It’s an obvious and prudent move, and there’s zero, zip, nada, and also zilch you can do to change this trend. Literacy tests were legal and had widespread support, too. That didn’t make them moral. > [@Loach](#): > > I welcome anything that cuts down on the fraud and corruption that is absolutely happening every fucking election. If it’s happening every fucking election, you surely have some kind of cite, yes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=5)