# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 411
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8201 "2015-04-06T12:39:01Z")
In another thread **Evil Captor** posts [a link to a report about a statistician pursuing the possibility of general voting-machine rigging favoring the GOP](http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article17139890.html). There have been other credible indications of voting-machine fraud favoring the GOP; I’ve linked to some in the past. At a minimum, I believe the Presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 were both swung by GOP fraud. Such fraud makes me very sad about American “democracy.” I think **Bricker** ’s response is predictable: The legislated rules and other government decisions that steered voting machine contracts to fraudsters were all implemented by bodies that, at least once-upon-a-time, were the products of “democracy.” Even the rules that prevented Black votes were imposed by “democratic processes.” _Democracy at its finest! My side wins!! Ha ha ha!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8202 "2015-04-06T15:32:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In another thread **Evil Captor** posts [a link to a report about a statistician pursuing the possibility of general voting-machine rigging favoring the GOP](http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article17139890.html). There have been other credible indications of voting-machine fraud favoring the GOP; I’ve linked to some in the past. > > At a minimum, I believe the Presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 were both swung by GOP fraud. Such fraud makes me very sad about American “democracy.” > > I think **Bricker** ’s response is predictable: The legislated rules and other government decisions that steered voting machine contracts to fraudsters were all implemented by bodies that, at least once-upon-a-time, were the products of “democracy.” Even the rules that prevented Black votes were imposed by “democratic processes.” _Democracy at its finest! My side wins!! Ha ha ha!!!_ You think Bricker would be unconcerned by strong evidence or proof that voting machines were deliberately falsified? I think that’s just nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8203 "2015-04-06T16:16:24Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > You think Bricker would be unconcerned by strong evidence or proof that voting machines were deliberately falsified? I think that’s just nonsense. I’m sure he’d _deny_ it. (That’s why I posted his true feelings for him.) Certainly my conclusion is an easy extrapolation from his lack of concern about obvious cheating during voter registrations. I will concede that **Bricker** is somewhat less detestable than my posts make him out to be. I’ll admit to taking message-board discussions too personally. Back when I still respected **Bricker** , he hijacked my thread, treating me with utter contempt and disrespect. I’ll treat him with less contempt if he ever properly apologizes for the contempt he showed me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8204 "2015-04-06T17:19:14Z")
You are talking about a guy who just scored 4,000 non-partisan cred points, by forthrightly defending Hillary, and never mentioning it. OK, maybe once. Couple of times. Fifteen, tops! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8205 "2015-04-06T17:19:17Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I think **Bricker** ’s response is predictable: The legislated rules and other government decisions that steered voting machine contracts to fraudsters were all implemented by bodies that, at least once-upon-a-time, were the products of “democracy.” Even the rules that prevented Black votes were imposed by “democratic processes.” _Democracy at its finest! My side wins!! Ha ha ha!!!_ This is an interesting tactic. You announce that my response is predictable, make it for me, and then inveigh against it. As to the linked story, I have no objection to the analysis sought by the statistician in the story. And if there emerges strong evidence of some kind of election fraud, I oppose it, no matter which side it purported to benefit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8206 "2015-04-06T17:35:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is an interesting tactic. You announce that my response is predictable, make it for me, and then inveigh against it. It’s a tactic you know very well. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8207 "2015-04-06T17:38:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As to the linked story, I have no objection to the analysis sought by the statistician in the story. And if there emerges strong evidence of some kind of election fraud, I oppose it, no matter which side it purported to benefit. Oddly, you can’t seem to mentally reconcile that some oppose voter barriers, no matter which side happens to benefit. To you, it must be a lefty-liberal thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8208 "2015-04-06T18:00:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As to the linked story, I have no objection to the analysis sought by the statistician in the story. And if there emerges strong evidence of some kind of election fraud, I oppose it, no matter which side it purported to benefit. Apparently it purports to benefit establishment Pubs as against Tea Partiers. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8209 "2015-04-06T18:48:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … I have no objection to the analysis sought by the statistician in the story… Nationwide, it is the Democrats that push for audits and other measures to thwart voting-machine fraud; and the GOP which consistently opposes them. Will you condemn the GOP for this? Or just hide behind your usual “Ha ha ha. You lost”? (Or, most likely, ignorantly reject the fact that it is the GOP that refuses to investigate such frauds?) ---
**Author:** ![OffByOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/45deac/32.png) [@OffByOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OffByOne)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8210 "2015-04-06T19:17:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > In another thread **Evil Captor** posts [a link to a report about a statistician pursuing the possibility of general voting-machine rigging favoring the GOP](http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/kansas/article17139890.html). There have been other credible indications of voting-machine fraud favoring the GOP; I’ve linked to some in the past. > > At a minimum, I believe the Presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 were both swung by GOP fraud. Such fraud makes me very sad about American “democracy.” > > I think **Bricker** ’s response is predictable: The legislated rules and other government decisions that steered voting machine contracts to fraudsters were all implemented by bodies that, at least once-upon-a-time, were the products of “democracy.” Even the rules that prevented Black votes were imposed by “democratic processes.” _Democracy at its finest! My side wins!! Ha ha ha!!!_ That moment when Karl Rove realized that the fix **wasn’t** in. Priceless! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8211 "2015-04-06T19:20:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Nationwide, it is the Democrats that push for audits and other measures to thwart voting-machine fraud; and the GOP which consistently opposes them. > > Will you condemn the GOP for this? Or just hide behind your usual “Ha ha ha. You lost”? (Or, most likely, ignorantly reject the fact that it is the GOP that refuses to investigate such frauds?) I have in the past, and I’ll certainly do so again. I have always said that voting machine algorithms should be auditable, although I understand the reluctance to make them public. But a state can engage a third party auditor with a non-disclosure clause in the contract, and should before approving any machine or method. Obviously I’d have to know what “other methods” you mean before endorsing or opposing them, but audits of algorithms is something I have already said should be done, and I’m happy to say so again. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8212 "2015-04-06T20:04:10Z")
Not that it matters, but what do algorithms have to do with anything? I don’t see why a voting machine would require much in the way of programming, and would likely prefer that they did not have much. As for why exit polls differ from voting stats, I’m going with shame and embarrassment, people vote Republican, but don’t want to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8213 "2015-04-06T20:10:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As for why exit polls differ from voting stats They don’t really - so on the few occasions where they do, something is suspect statistically. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8214 "2015-04-06T20:15:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not that it matters, but what do algorithms have to do with anything? I don’t see why a voting machine would require much in the way of programming, and would likely prefer that they did not have much. The basic functions of a voting machine are: accurately capture each single vote, and accurately report voter totals as well as aggregate votes cast for each ballot item. It should prevent a single ballot containing multiple votes for single-office candidates. An audit tests each of these features, both by code review and by actual test of results. The machine should also have sanity check features: if there were 16,034 total voters, then the total number of votes for each single-office position cannot exceed 16,034. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8215 "2015-04-06T20:18:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Obviously I’d have to know what “other methods” you mean before endorsing or opposing them . . . A paper trail, preserved until the period to call for a recount is expired. I.e., the machine scans the paper ballots and then they go in a sealed box. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8216 "2015-04-06T20:25:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > A paper trail, preserved until the period to call for a recount is expired. I.e., the machine scans the paper ballots and then they go in a sealed box. Yes, that sounds acceptable. Or a Voter-Verified Paper Trial type solution, where the electronic machine captures the choices and prints a physical replica which the voter checks and acknowledges as correct. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8217 "2015-04-07T15:43:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not that it matters, but what do algorithms have to do with anything? I don’t see why a voting machine would require much in the way of programming, and would likely prefer that they did not have much. A line of computer code can be saved by replacing ```auto If (touchEvent.where == DeweyDemocrat) CountD++; else If (touchEvent.where == RonnieRepub) CountR++; else touch.Event.Ignore(); ``` with ```auto If (touchEvent.where == DeweyDemocrat) CountD++; else CountR++;; ``` I recall a case where that was reported to be the algorithm. I can’t find a cite now, but you can use a variation [of the search I did](http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/php/risks/search.php?query=voting+machine+touch+screen) to find various problems. For examples: > [@](#): > > This paper presents a fully independent security study of a > Diebold AccuVote-TS voting machine, including its hardware and software. We > obtained the machine from a private party. Analysis of the machine, in light > of real election procedures, shows that it is vulnerable to extremely > serious attacks. For example, an attacker who gets physical access to a > machine or its removable memory card for as little as one minute could > install malicious code; malicious code on a machine could steal votes > undetectably, modifying all records, logs, and counters to be consistent > with the fraudulent vote count it creates. An attacker could also create > malicious code that spreads automatically and silently from machine to > machine during normal election a voting-machine virus. We have constructed > working demonstrations of these attacks in our lab. Mitigating these threats > will require changes to the voting machine’s hardware and software and the > adoption of more rigorous election procedures. > [@](#): > > As the battle over voting machines rages across the country, the U.S. > Commission on Civil Rights met on 9 Apr 2004, to examine the “Integrity, > Security and Accessibility in the Nation’s Readiness to Vote.” Two > scientists and four representatives of civil rights organizations were > invited to brief the Commission. > > But, before the panelists had a chance to share their views, three > Republican commissioners and one (notably conservative) Independent > commissioner walked out, ostensibly over a personnel dispute. But, others > are not so sure. > > It appears that voting technology is a topic that the Republican leadership > wants to tightly control. It is without doubt that Republicans own most of > the companies that manufacture, sell, and service voting machines. And > President Bush and the Republican Congress appear determined to control and > limit oversight of the elections industry. The Bush Administration has > stacked the Election Assistance Commission with supporters of paperless > voting technology, while the National Institute of Standards and > Technology’s (NIST) got walloped with a $22 million budget cut in fiscal > 2004, which means that NIST will have to cut back substantially on its cyber > security work, as well as completely stop all work on voting technology for > the Help America Vote Act. > > With no mandatory federal standards or certification in place and no funding > available, the Bush Administration and Republican-controlled Congress have > ensured that their friends in the elections industry maintain control of > voting technology and, in effect, election results. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8218 "2015-06-30T17:24:59Z")
[News from New Jersey:](http://www.salon.com/2015/06/30/chris_christies_genius_scheme_to_broaden_gops_base_attack_voting_rights/) > [@](#): > > In case there was any remaining doubt that Christie will run as a garden-variety right-winger, the governor has now brought the GOP’s crusade against voting rights to New Jersey, which witnessed its lowest-ever turnout in last fall’s midterm elections. The Democratic-controlled state legislature this week gave final approval to the Democracy Act, legislation that would institute automatic voter registration for any New Jerseyan obtaining a driver’s license and expand early voting, mail voting, and online registration. Though the legislation builds on proven reforms enacted in other states — Oregon recently became the first to enact automatic voter registration — Christie has vowed to veto the bill, railing against it with standard GOP boilerplate about the phantom “voter fraud” problem. > > “I don’t think that people ought to be automatically registered to vote,” Christie said last week, adding, for good get-off-my-lawn measure, “Is it really too much to ask to ask someone to fill out a form?” > > Perhaps detecting in his adversaries the same Machiavellian instincts that have defined his administration, Christie continued, “There’s no question in my mind that there are some advocates of this who are looking to increase the opportunity for voter fraud. I think there’s much more politics behind this than there is democracy.” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8219 "2015-06-30T18:43:14Z")
Of course he’s against it. If you register people when they get their license then they automatically also have a picture ID (the license). That’s unacceptable! It creates a large class of people who don’t face the extra obstacle that voter ID laws are supposed to create. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8220 "2015-07-27T16:46:30Z")
[Speaker of the House Jim Wright Denied Texas Voter ID Card.](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/11/03/1252733/-90-Year-Old-Legendary-Speaker-of-the-House-Jim-Wright-Denied-Texas-Voter-ID-Card) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=410) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=412)