# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 421
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8401 "2016-02-05T20:18:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Yes, it does matter, quite a lot. It’s the difference between news reporting and opinion. Bullshit. It doesn’t matter at all in this instance. AFAICT, **Bricker** pointed it out because he wanted to try and poison the well in advance of actually looking at the information, just like you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8402 "2016-02-05T20:26:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I daresay the relevant social factors are somewhat different there. And I’ve posted this link before but [take a look at what counts as acceptable ID](http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e). I count 40+ options there! And if you somehow can’t provide any of those forms of ID here’s the option to have another registered voter swear that’s you’re legit. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8403 "2016-02-05T20:42:33Z")
**Sam** , scroll upthread several thousand posts. You’ll see that most of us who object note first that “identification of citizenship” and suchlike proofs should (and typically are) required at voter registration, not at the poll on election day. So it isn’t that we want no such controls at all. Further, most of us stated that our objections would be dramatically reduced or even eliminated if the new voter ID laws provided for assistance and education directed at those being impacted, and the requirements were phased in over a sufficient time for the heavily impacted people to obtain their ID’s. Finally, financial subsidies should be available for people for whom obtaining ID poses a genuine burden. Instead, ID’s were in many cases made more difficult to obtain by the closing of drivers license stations and other governmental offices. It really isn’t supposed to be about allowing or not allowing the “kind of person you want voting” down here on this side of the border. Our pesky Constitution thingy gets in the way of us setting such criteria for exercise of the franchise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8404 "2016-02-05T20:56:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You guys are always talking about how you should look to Canada for a more civilized way of doing things. I agree. > > In Canada, you have to show positive identification to vote. No one on the left or right sees any problem with this whatsoever. A while ago I had an argument with a lefty friend who was ranting about how the Republicans in the U.S. wanted to ‘subvert democracy’. I asked him why he thought requiring proof of citizenship was subverting democracy, and he looked flabbergasted. “That’s not the issue at all! Of course they have to show that - it only makes sense. It’s something else the Republicans are doing!” Is your lefty friend Canadian? If so, he should know that the voter ID requirements in Canada operate in a context somewhat different than that of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8405 "2016-02-05T21:52:58Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > What country _wouldn’t_ want to make sure you were eligible to vote before doing so? If you’d been paying any attention at all, you’d know we handle that at registration time already. > [@](#): > > He promised to get back to me when he found out what the ‘real’ issue was, but never did. There’s a whole thread right here, and others in GD and Elections, that would enlighten you. Please feel free. > [@](#): > > It’s quite clear to me that the reason this is such a huge issue in the U.S. is precisely because the left knows that they would lose votes if that happened because some of their voters wouldn’t be arsed to actually go through the minimal steps required. One thing you might come to learn is that, for many, it isn’t minimal. Another is that the effects are disproportionate. Then, you might realize that (A) that is antidemocratic, and (B) the entire fucking point of these laws. Come back when etc. > [@](#): > > they probably aren’t the kind of person you want voting on stuff anyway. Or maybe you \*wouldn’t \*understand the point about democracy after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8406 "2016-02-05T22:18:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Sorry, it’s published under the Washington Post banner; I didn’t notice the tiny “Wonkblog”. Does it matter, tho? Is it somehow incorrect or suspect information? A blog is a writer’s personal thoughts, and “a Washington Post article,” is the result of editorial review from one of the nation’s premier newspapers. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8407 "2016-02-05T22:27:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > You guys are always talking about how you should look to Canada for a more civilized way of doing things. I agree. > > In Canada, you have to show positive identification to vote. No one on the left or right sees any problem with this whatsoever. A while ago I had an argument with a lefty friend who was ranting about how the Republicans in the U.S. wanted to ‘subvert democracy’. I asked him why he thought requiring proof of citizenship was subverting democracy, and he looked flabbergasted. “That’s not the issue at all! Of course they have to show that - it only makes sense. It’s something else the Republicans are doing!” > > When I explained that the issue really was about requiring proof of citizenship before voting, he refused to believe me because that was obvious common sense. What country _wouldn’t_ want to make sure you were eligible to vote before doing so? He promised to get back to me when he found out what the ‘real’ issue was, but never did. > > It’s quite clear to me that the reason this is such a huge issue in the U.S. is precisely because the left knows that they would lose votes if that happened because some of their voters wouldn’t be arsed to actually go through the minimal steps required. To me, and I’ll bet to 90% of Canadians if you asked them, if someone can’t be bothered to register to vote or to get some form of official ID, they probably aren’t the kind of person you want voting on stuff anyway. What percentage of Canadians don’t have such an ID. Are those Canadians from specific minority groups? How much effort does it take to get such an ID? Maybe think about stuff before you get all hot-and-bothered about yappin’ at the lefties? ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8408 "2016-02-05T23:06:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A blog is a writer’s personal thoughts, and “a Washington Post article,” is the result of editorial review from one of the nation’s premier newspapers. So what? The first posted link was a research paper. The second posted link was the source that originally reported on the research paper. The source that originally reported the research should only impact one’s initial, provisional acceptance of the article–and then only moderately. It should have no bearing whatsoever on one’s actual analysis of the paper’s findings. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8409 "2016-02-06T02:46:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Bullshit. It doesn’t matter at all in this instance. AFAICT, **Bricker** pointed it out because he wanted to try and poison the well in advance of actually looking at the information, just like you’re doing. It’s not bullshit. You admitted on your own (post #8397) that you have trouble telling the difference between news and opinion. There is a large distinction between the two. Posters who don’t know that are a problem on message boards, especially one dedicated to “fighting ignorance”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8410 "2016-02-06T02:57:01Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > It’s not bullshit. You admitted on your own (post #8397) that you have trouble telling the difference between news and opinion. There is a large distinction between the two. No, I didn’t admit that. I said nothing even close to that. > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Posters who don’t know that are a problem on message boards, especially one dedicated to “fighting ignorance”. No, lying sacks of shit like yourself are the the problem around here. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8411 "2016-02-06T03:01:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A blog is a writer’s personal thoughts, and “a Washington Post article,” is the result of editorial review from one of the nation’s premier newspapers. I didn’t ask you to explain what the difference between blog and a journalistic article might be, did I? Why not just answer the question I asked? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8412 "2016-02-06T03:57:44Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I didn’t ask you to explain what the difference between blog and a journalistic article might be, did I? Why not just answer the question I asked? My answer is: yes, it does matter. I then gratuitously explained why it mattered. I thought that would be helpful to you, given your confusion over the difference. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8413 "2016-02-06T04:10:57Z")
Bo, You seem genuinely unable to tell the difference between journalism and opinion. I know that you’re not stupid, but what’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8414 "2016-02-06T04:25:24Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > So what? > > The first posted link was a research paper. > > The second posted link was the source that originally reported on the research paper. > > The source that originally reported the research should only impact one’s initial, provisional acceptance of the article–and then only moderately. It should have no bearing whatsoever on one’s actual analysis of the paper’s findings. You’re not from around here, are you? Narrow-minded right-wingers will adopt any excuse to avoid educating themselves. If _any_ of the cites have the word “blog” in the URL (or _any_ of the authors have a French surname :rolleyes: ) they’re happy to reject any post in its entirety. > [@Bricker](#): > > A blog is a writer’s personal thoughts, and “a Washington Post article,” is the result of editorial review from one of the nation’s premier newspapers. So, have you acknowledged that there was a 2nd link presented in the post you’re fulminating about? If so, have you read the research paper? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8415 "2016-02-06T08:56:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So, have you acknowledged that there was a 2nd link presented in the post you’re fulminating about? If so, have you read the research paper? Yes, I have acknowledged there was a second link, and I followed the link and read the paper. In post 8391, I said: > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s a working paper, not peer reviewed. So I’d like a chance to study it, and a chance for others better versed in methodology than I am to review it as well. Prior studies have, as we previously discussed, shown different results. It’s not clear to me why this one is correct and they are flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8416 "2016-02-06T08:59:57Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Fair enough. Imagine, hypothetically, that you believed the findings to be accurate. Would that change any of the stands that you have espoused in this thread? Yes, it may well. For example, the paper targets the states with the most strict voter ID laws; assuming I agreed with its methodology and conclusions, I most likely would favor less strict voter ID standards. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8417 "2016-02-06T09:05:11Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, I didn’t admit that. I said nothing even close to that. You said: > [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Sorry, it’s published under the Washington Post banner; I didn’t notice the tiny “Wonkblog”. Does it matter, tho? Is it somehow incorrect or suspect information? You were also unable to notice the conversational tone of the blog post, which immediately signals that the piece is not an article, at least not one the Post would publish as an article. These facts make it at least fairly arguable that you are unable to determine the difference between news and opinion pieces. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8418 "2016-02-06T09:58:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I have acknowledged there was a second link, and I followed the link and read the paper. In post 8391, I said: OK. So I guess your continued focus on whether the other link – the irrelevant link – is by a journalist or by a blogger is just a distraction, a case of picking on a weak irrelevant matter rather than doing what the intellectually honest do. And BTW, you either have more confidence in “peer review” than I do, or are just throwing that out as another distraction. This is a behavior pattern that may be appropriate for lawyers but won’t endear you to ordinary humans. “Your honor, my client should not be found guilty of jaywalking because the signal light may have been broken. Yes, prosecution has submitted a report that the light worked 24/7, _ **but that report was never peer-reviewed.** _” Have you ever conceded, or even grasped, that the chicanery for which you’re paid in a “court of law” is not the way sincere people debate serious matters of policy? And BTW, although that working paper may not yet have been refereed, [the lead author’s webpage claims that over a dozen of his papers on related topics have been refereed.](http://pages.ucsd.edu/~zhajnal/documents/hajnalcv_000.pdf) HTH. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8419 "2016-02-06T10:48:24Z")
On reflection: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It’s quite clear to me that the reason this is such a huge issue in the U.S. is precisely because the left knows that they would lose votes if that happened because some of their voters wouldn’t be arsed to actually go through the minimal steps required. What exactly is justifying the imposition of extra “steps” at this time? The imaginary waves of voter fraud? > [@](#): > > To me, and I’ll bet to 90% of Canadians if you asked them, if someone can’t be bothered to register to vote or to get some form of official ID, they probably aren’t the kind of person you want voting on stuff anyway. Notably, we Canadians have a government agency whose main purposes include making it easier for us to register and vote. The Americans don’t have such, or seem interested it setting up such. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8420 "2016-02-06T11:31:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > [QUOTE=Sam Stone] > It’s quite clear to me that the reason this is such a huge issue in the U.S. is precisely because the left knows that they would lose votes if that happened because some of their voters wouldn’t be arsed to actually go through the minimal steps required. What exactly is justifying the imposition of extra “steps” at this time? The imaginary waves of voter fraud? Notably, we Canadians have a government agency whose main purposes include making it easier for us to register and vote. The Americans don’t have such, or seem interested it setting up such. [/QUOTE] Notice furthermore that it seems NOT “to be clear” to Sam Stone that “this is such a huge issue in the U.S. precisely because the” RIGHT _gains an electoral advantage_ from selective voter suppression. I write “selective” voter suppression because the legislatures enacting voter suppression do have a clear purpose and write their laws accordingly. Some states, for example, accept concealed-carry permits as ID, but not student ID cards. (Gun nuts are most likely to vote Republcian, while college students are more likely to vote sanely.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=420) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=422)