# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/841 "2012-07-02T18:55:25Z")
> **[Nevada: Acorn Is Fined in Vote Scheme (Published 2011)](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/12/us/12brfs-Acorn.html)** > > The defunct community organizing group Acorn was fined the maximum $5,000 in a voter registration scheme. > [@](#): > > …The defunct community organizing group Acorn was fined the maximum $5,000 in a voter registration scheme. Judge Donald Mosley of Clark County District Court handed down the fine on Wednesday… Wow, heavy stuff! Five grand! Thirteen felony counts, heavy heavy stuff, boils down to five grand? You know, starting to think this isn’t as big a deal as the Counselor would like us to believe. But then, he’s got tons and tons of other such crimes to bring to our attention. Right, Counselor? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/842 "2012-07-02T19:04:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Yes, they admitted the minimum necessary wrong-doing necessary to comply with thier plea. They did not come clean and admit all their felonious deeds… Which were what, perzackly? They were compelled to admit the “minimum necessary” for their plea deal. How come they weren’t compelled to admit these other “felonious deeds”, which, I note for the record, you do not specify, but merely allude to while moving briskly along. Surely you have these right at your fingertips, since you make the public accusation of them? > [@](#): > > … You claimed ACORN didn’t commit voter fraud; I pointed out that they did commit election law fraud. For some reason that observation really bothered you… Because they are not the same thing? Might that be it? After all, you worded them differently: election law fraud over here, voter fraud over there. Given your fervent devotion to semantic precision, you imply that they are not the same thing while you insist that they are. Well, which is it? I swear, as slippery as a catfish in a barrel of motor oil… > [@](#): > > …And I notice the outright falsehood proffered by Budget Player Cadet seemingly don’t bother you at all, but my factually accurate statements really rile you up. You’re so concerned about hyper-accuracy that you leap on me for responding to your true statement with a different, also true statement. But the outright false statements flow by you like a mighty river. And finally, at long last, the liberal hypocrisy. \* Pobrecito!\* ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/843 "2012-07-02T19:14:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, we’re just lucky he picked the weakest case to present, because he’s got oodles and gobs of such examples, he just brings up this one over and over and over because he’s being so easy on us! > I love how carefully worded this is! Its a masterpiece of Brickerism. Note how carefully it avoids questions of guilt and/or innocence! “Under his advice, to avoid guilty verdicts”. Love it to death! Note how carefully it implies guilt without actually stating it! They did it to avoid “guilty verdicts”. > > TG, IANAL, but seems to me I’ve heard tell of lawyers advising clients to take plea deals when they were innocent of actual intent, but guilty of a technical violation. Better for all concerned, though not, strictly speaking, a shining example of justice. > > Is this the only one you got, **Bricker**? Seems to me you’ve brought this exact same case up time and time again, with the same arguments and counter-arguments each time. Surely you must have literally dozens of such examples at your fingertips, since ACORN was such a thoroughly corrupt bunch of sleazeballs! Maybe you should bring a few of those, maybe a dozen or so, to counter the unfortunate impression that this is all you got, so you bring it up again and again and again… > > I wait with bated breath to be devastated. Of course there are others! [Lloyd “Frosty” Herrera](http://www.denverda.org/News_Release/Releases/2004%20release/Herrera%20election%20perjury%20charge.html), of Denver – five counts of perjury. And Monique Mora and Pelonne Page: Denver again, procuring false registrations. [How about the seven](http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/region/7-acorn-workers-charged-with-forgery-341234/) miscreants in Pennsylvania? Alexis Givner, Latasha Kinney, Mario Grisom, Bryan Williams, Ashley Clarke, Eric Eugene Jordan, and Eric Lee Jones? And [Kevin L. Clancy of Milwaukee](http://dailycaller.com/2010/11/23/the-voter-fraud-hall-of-shame-milwaukee-voter-fraud-conviction-makes-acorn%E2%80%99s-2010-total-at-least-15/): guilty of participating in a scheme to submit fraudulent voter registration applications in Wisconsin. So was [Maria Miles.](http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/101418199.html) King County, Washington: [Tina Marie Johnson,Jayson Lee Woods, Clifton Eugene Mitchell, Ryan Edward Olson, Robert Edward Greene, Kendra Lynn Thill, and Brianna Rose Debwa.](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003808207_votefraud27m.html) Much more than a dozen. Happy? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/844 "2012-07-02T19:17:13Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/12/us/12brfs-Acorn.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/12/us/12brfs-Acorn.html) > > Wow, heavy stuff! Five grand! Thirteen felony counts, heavy heavy stuff, boils down to five grand? You know, starting to think this isn’t as big a deal as the Counselor would like us to believe. But then, he’s got tons and tons of other such crimes to bring to our attention. Right, Counselor? You can’t send a corporation to prison. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/845 "2012-07-02T19:22:25Z")
Gosh, I thought there were specific people mentioned. Oh, wait, now I know why I thought so, your cite said so! > [@](#): > > …The indictment includes 13 counts each against Acorn and its former Las Vegas field director, Christopher Edwards… Each, Counselor. Thirteen counts each. And that lady, also mention, Ann Something? No jail time for these rapacious felons? Just five grand? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/846 "2012-07-02T19:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > …In that case, a Republican-leaning group sought out new registrations. In some instances, college students complained that they signed forms they thought were petitions on behalf of legalizing medical marijuana, only to find that they had somehow switched their voter registrations. > > At the time, Gov. Ed Rendell said he would refer the matter to the state attorney general for investigation, but later decided against doing so… Just an interesting tidbit in your second cite, Counselor. So, I guess not much happened in this particular case, huh? Excuse me a second, I have to clear some space on the floor so I can roll around and tear my hair while I scream: “Conservative hypocrisy! Everybody come look at the conservative hypocrisy!!” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/847 "2012-07-02T19:32:31Z")
From cite the third, from the widely respected authoritative source, the _DC Social Reader_. (Don’t ask me, ask Bricker, I got no fucking clue who they are…) > [@](#): > > …Clancy admitted to filing multiple voter registration applications for the same individuals and registering himself and other voter registration canvassers to vote multiple times while working on an ACORN voter drive. > > Clancy received a 10-month prison term for his crime. Clancy’s sentence will begin when he completes another sentence he is currently serving for armed robbery… Offered without comment, outside of a smirk not visible to the reader… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/848 "2012-07-02T19:36:10Z")
> [@](#): > > …State and local officials said they have signed a five-year agreement with ACORN that requires the organization to beef up its training and procedures for detecting and reporting fraud. ACORN agreed to pay King County $25,000 for investigative costs and acknowledged it could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again… Hmm. Seems kinda like to me that the State, in this instance, has adjudged ACORN to be a victim more than a perp, yes? Where is the indictment and punishment for ACORN for connivance and skulduggery? Which is what you allege, right, Counselor? That all of these are examples of ACORN’s treachery and felony, yes? I read your cites, Counselor. Starting to wonder if you do. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/849 "2012-07-02T19:41:42Z")
Kinda waiting on Uzi, because I know Bricker is not really interested in debating the merit of voter ID laws any more. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/850 "2012-07-02T19:57:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gosh, I thought there were specific people mentioned. Oh, wait, now I know why I thought so, your cite said so! > > Each, Counselor. Thirteen counts each. And that lady, also mention, Ann Something? No jail time for these rapacious felons? Just five grand? > [@Las Vegas Review Journal](#): > > A former supervisor affiliated with the political advocacy group ACORN agreed to a plea deal Monday in a case alleging illegal bonus payments to workers registering voters in Nevada during the 2008 presidential campaign. > > Amy Busefink, 28, of Seminole, Fla., entered an Alford plea to two gross misdemeanor counts of conspiracy to commit the crime of compensation for registration of voters. Busefink faced 13 felony counts alleging she was linked to illegal payments. She got a year of probation, a hundred hours of community service – presumably NOT registering more fake voters – and a $4,000 fine ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/851 "2012-07-02T20:03:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > From cite the third, from the widely respected authoritative source, the _DC Social Reader_. (Don’t ask me, ask Bricker, I got no fucking clue who they are…) > > Offered without comment, outside of a smirk not visible to the reader… Why the smirk? You believe that it helps the ACORN story to learn that one of ACORN’s felons is also a potentially violent criminal whose crimes weren’t limited to election law fraud? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/852 "2012-07-02T20:14:37Z")
> [@](#): > > She got a year of probation, a hundred hours of community service – presumably NOT registering more fake voters – and a $4,000 fine Gasp! Certainly more trouble than those scoundrels in Pennsylvania got! Much more heinous offense, probably. Yeah, that must be it… But your parade of citations mostly, if not entirely, reflect an ACORN taken advantage of more than an evil enterprise. This is the best you got? Really? Seems likely to me, I know these people of old, and they are as naive as daffodils. Do they believe in recruiting right from the innermost city, and employing the otherwise unemployable, and that their idealism will overwhelm any criminal bent. Yes, they did, God love 'em, they did believe exactly that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/853 "2012-07-02T20:21:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why the smirk? You believe that it helps the ACORN story to learn that one of ACORN’s felons is also a potentially violent criminal whose crimes weren’t limited to election law fraud? Love your careful wording, Counselor! “..a potentially violent criminal…” How much innuendo and suggestion can be carried in just one word: “potentially”. Not that you are saying he was violent, no, no, if called on that, you got the trap door, down you go, you only said he was “potentially” violent! Let me make a guess, Counselor. You don’t know the least damn thing about him, do you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/854 "2012-07-02T20:33:26Z")
I may have to stop for a while, I’m appalled, shocked and sickened by the dreadful skulduggery and felonious behavior of the Pennsylvania Republican Crime Family. Should the entire Republican Party of Pennsylvania be executed? No, no, a bit much. Might want to hang a couple of them, though, _pour encourager les autres._… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/855 "2012-07-02T21:40:05Z")
How embarassing! Upthread I chuckled at one of Bricker’s cites, the _DC Social Reader_, like it was some little known, off the wall source included only for bulking out the citations. In fact, the _Social Reader_ is a part of the widely respected and admired _Daily Caller_ organization, who’s commitment to unvarnished truth and non-partisan candor is the stuff of legends. Like Nessie… ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/856 "2012-07-02T23:21:37Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Kinda waiting on Uzi, because I know Bricker is not really interested in debating the merit of voter ID laws any more. I live in a different time zone. I have to sleep sometime! > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You don’t see the difference between people who choose not to vote because they don’t see the point in our system and people who would vote but cannot because they can’t pass hurdles put in the way for arbitrary reasons. Yes, I do. Yet all these reasons stop people from voting. Some of these reasons are just excuses. > [@](#): > > I honestly think that election day should be a paid holiday to anyone who can demonstrate that they voted. In Canada the employer has to give you time off to vote, but I think handing a paid vacation to people in a country with such low turnout rate might end lowering the participation rate even further. > [@](#): > > But you know what? That’s not what this is about. This is about you guys implementing a new law that would put another hurdle up to voting _in order to make our voting procedure more representative_. Well, I’m not implementing anything. I’m a Canadian. We have higher participation rates in elections AND voter ID requirements where it is up to our citizens to get their own ID. > [@](#): > > The fact is that if this law makes elections less representative, The idea is to make it more representative of those who are eligible to vote. > [@](#): > > Why? Actually, wait, what? Let’s say a law disenfranchises 10 voters, while preventing one fraudulent vote. Are you saying that this is okay? Yes and no. If the hurdle to vote is insurmountable, then clearly that is unfair and shouldn’t be implemented. This isn’t the case here, though. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/857 "2012-07-03T06:05:39Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I live in a different time zone. I have to sleep sometime! Hey, so do I, and you don’t see _me_ making excuses! 😃 > [@](#): > > Well, I’m not implementing anything. I’m a Canadian. We have higher participation rates in elections AND voter ID requirements where it is up to our citizens to get their own ID. You’re supporting the implementation of voter ID laws. > [@](#): > > The idea is to make it more representative of those who are eligible to vote. Great. Then give me your values for X and Y. See, the _idea_ is good. The implementation is suspect at best, because the group of people with no ID and who cite lack of ID as a reason not to vote is simply that much larger than the group of people voting illegally. > [@](#): > > Yes and no. If the hurdle to vote is insurmountable, then clearly that is unfair and shouldn’t be implemented. This isn’t the case here, though. It is for some people. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/858 "2012-07-03T12:01:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This phrase evokes mental imagery of a kind not conducive to good mental hygiene. Trans v… Trans va… Trans v-v… trans voting probes! > [@Uzi](#): > > You haven’t proven that this will stop people from voting who actually want to vote. Could reduce the number of people wanting to vote, too, y’know. > [@Uzi](#): > > This isn’t the case here, though. Is a reading test an insurmountable burden? ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/859 "2012-07-03T13:00:27Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Well, I’m not implementing anything. I’m a Canadian. We have higher participation rates in elections AND voter ID requirements where it is up to our citizens to get their own ID. Shhhh, This sort of information has no place in the debate. Just because there is a system that is working that has voter ID requirements, and the population still votes with greater voter participation than in the US, doesnt mean that this sort of requirement in the US is unfair. I mean, gee wilikers, we only have to show ID to us our credit cards, buy a beer, cigarettes, drive, get a student discount at the movie theater… Obviously, this sort of requirement has increased the use of cash, decreased drinking, smoking, driving, and people paid the 2 bucks more at the theaters… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/860 "2012-07-03T13:46:29Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Shhhh, This sort of information has no place in the debate. Just because there is a system that is working that has voter ID requirements, and the population still votes with greater voter participation than in the US, doesnt mean that this sort of requirement in the US is unfair. > > I mean, gee wilikers, we only have to show ID to us our credit cards, buy a beer, cigarettes, drive, get a student discount at the movie theater… > > Obviously, this sort of requirement has increased the use of cash, decreased drinking, smoking, driving, and people paid the 2 bucks more at the theaters… But they’re poor! And they have six jobs! Every day of the week, they get up at 2 AM, work 28 hours, and go to bed four hours after they have to wake up the next day! Who could get to a DMV with a schedule like that? Plus they were born in a tiki hut on a deserted island off the coast of Hawaii with only a coconut crab in attendance, so they have no birth certificate. They’re disenfranchised! Hundreds of thousands of them! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=44)