# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 434
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8661 "2016-03-08T22:01:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I addressed both. > > The substance of the first sentence is that my father was lucky. The substance of the second is that I was lucky. The _explicit content of the second sentence_ was that your father had the “confluence of knowledge, intelligence, and lack of risk-aversion” that allowed your success. Your knee-jerk response was that the claim was that it was _all_ luck. The reading comprehension problem is yours, along with the laziness. I see Lobohan has already addressed this, as was of course his right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8662 "2016-03-08T22:09:09Z")
On reflection, I can appreciate the merit of this “the substance of _X_ is that…” approach, because regardless of what _X_ actually is, its\* substance\* can be declared to be anything one wants. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8663 "2016-03-08T22:10:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > On reflection, I can appreciate the merit of this “the substance of _X_ is that…” approach, because regardless of what _X_ actually is, its\* substance\* can be declared to be anything one wants. The substance of Buddhism is, _every man for himself_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8664 "2016-03-08T22:14:20Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because, stupid, you were brought up by a person who didn’t have the ignorance and lack of options that someone in generational poverty has. Your father broke the cycle. But we were still not wealthy. And if ignorance is so pervasive, how did my dad evade its crushing grip? If lack of options is so debilitating, how did he create options for himself? See the problem? Even if you pretend that I was advantaged, was he? And if not, then what’s the difference? My thesis is that “generational poverty” is escapable with the desire to escape and the willingness to work. You say I didn’t need that – fine. But clearly my dad did. So my argument is still shown true. > [@](#): > > So, would you say that knowledge, intelligence, and lack of rick-aversion doesn’t count as merit? Jesus you’re goofy. Sure they do. But you advanced those qualities of his as MY luck that he had them. > [@](#): > > Three flights is hardly difficult, in fact, it’s far easier than getting an ID. I disagree. But this is why we have laws and courts. If the decision went against me, I’d acknowledge my expectations were out of step. > [@](#): > > I spent a lot of time in the library. Mostly because I couldn’t afford books of my own. #sad Me, too. Free reading. Learned lots. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8665 "2016-03-08T22:52:32Z")
Within the context of this message board, I am prepared to recognize that Bricker is not advantaged. Like, even a little. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8666 "2016-03-08T22:55:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Within the context of this message board, I am prepared to recognize that Bricker is not advantaged. > Like, even a little. Thanks. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8667 "2016-03-08T23:03:30Z")
Based on that reply and still within the context of this message board, I’m prepared to suggest Bricker may be _dis_advantaged. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8668 "2016-03-08T23:42:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Based on that reply and still within the context of this message board, I’m prepared to suggest Bricker may be _dis_advantaged. All the more reason for you liberals to shower me with privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8669 "2016-03-08T23:47:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All the more reason for you liberals to shower me with privileges. Oh, that’s not likely but I’m confident we won’t conspire to deprive you of your vote, at least. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8670 "2016-03-09T00:00:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t particularly care if there is a disparate impact… Wow! No shit? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8671 "2016-03-09T00:01:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > All the more reason for you liberals to shower me with privileges. Oh, we do, we put up with your sorry ass. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8672 "2016-03-09T03:10:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The cry of the liberal. “He was lucky.” No one has anything on merit; it’s all luck. > . It’s not all luck. It’s mostly luck. > **[Mobility, measured](https://www.economist.com/united-states/2014/02/01/mobility-measured)** > > America is no less socially mobile than it was a generation ago > **[Americans overestimate social class mobility](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103115000062)** > > In this research we examine estimates of American social class mobility—the ability to move up or down in education and income status. Across studies,… Basically playing musical chairs with 10 players and one chair. And thus cried the conservative, “anyone can win!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8673 "2016-03-09T04:42:29Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > It’s not all luck. It’s mostly luck. > > [Mobility, measured](http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21595437-america-no-less-socially-mobile-it-was-generation-ago-mobility-measured) > [Americans overestimate social class mobility - ScienceDirect](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103115000062) > > Basically playing musical chairs with 10 players and one chair. > > And thus cried the conservative, “anyone can win!” Which specific parts in either cite support the idea that it’s mostly luck? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8674 "2016-03-09T05:15:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Which specific parts in either cite support the idea that it’s mostly luck? From the first cite, found by the most casual perusal imaginable: > [@](#): > > The study, by a clutch of economists at Harvard University and the University of California, Berkeley, is far bigger than any previous effort to measure social mobility. The economists crunch numbers from over 40m tax returns of people born between 1971 and 1993 (with all identifying information removed). They focus on mobility between generations and use several ways to measure it, including the correlation of parents’ and children’s income, and **the odd** s that a child born into the bottom fifth of the income distribution will climb all the way up to the top fifth. > They find that none of these measures has changed much (see chart). In 1971 a child from the poorest fifth had **an 8.4% chance** of making it to the top quintile. For a child born in 1986 **the odds were 9%**. I realize math and statistics are not your strong suit, or perhaps more accurately that math and statistics are of little interest to you when they conflict with your ideology, but phrases I’ve bolded speak to chance, i.e. luck, and I didn’t even read the whole article. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8675 "2016-03-09T05:33:40Z")
By the way, I eagerly await your counter that those particular cites don’t speak to “mostly”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8676 "2016-03-09T05:44:21Z")
He is likely to broaden your understanding of the word “mostly”. Yours is far too narrow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8677 "2016-03-09T06:02:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > From the first cite, found by the most casual perusal imaginable: > > I realize math and statistics are not your strong suit, or perhaps more accurately that math and statistics are of little interest to you when they conflict with your ideology, but phrases I’ve bolded speak to chance, i.e. luck, and I didn’t even read the whole article. The article had nothing to do with luck. It was refuting the commonly held belief that social mobility is worse today than it was a generation ago. The use of the word “chance” is not synonymous with “luck”, in that contex. Perhaps you should have read the whole article. Besides, was the discussion about going from the bottom to the very top (which is what that article measured) or simply escaping grinding poverty and entering the middle class? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8678 "2016-03-09T06:04:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > From the first cite, found by the most casual perusal imaginable: > > I realize math and statistics are not your strong suit, or perhaps more accurately that math and statistics are of little interest to you when they conflict with your ideology, but phrases I’ve bolded speak to chance, i.e. luck, and I didn’t even read the whole article. No, they don’t. They speak to,the percentage of people that have the will and desire to make the requisite sacrifices to attain the social mobility in question, and whether such percentages have changed over the years. Why is that “luck?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8679 "2016-03-09T06:09:34Z")
The authors made absolutely no attempt to relate cause and effect in that study. The were not looking at how people rose form the bottom to the top, but whether or not they do more so recently than they did in the not too distant past. It was purely a statistical analysis. They did not state or imply that it was roll of the dice. A little modesty about understanding statistics might be in order here, **Bryan**. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8680 "2016-03-09T06:57:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, they don’t. They speak to,the percentage of people that have the will and desire to make the requisite sacrifices to attain the social mobility in question, and whether such percentages have changed over the years. So, you’re saying it’s ALL due to will and desire to make the requisite sacrifices? No-one’s life is ever affected through chance? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=433) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=435)