# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 435
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8681 "2016-03-09T07:06:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The authors made absolutely no attempt to relate cause and effect in that study. The were not looking at how people rose form the bottom to the top, but whether or not they do more so recently than they did in the not too distant past. It was purely a statistical analysis. They did not state or imply that it was roll of the dice. A little modesty about understanding statistics might be in order here, **Bryan**. It requires no great measure of immodesty to be confident that my understanding of statistics and math is greater than Bricker’s, so thanks for the suggestion but I’m doing okay. In any case, just from the excerpt I quoted, the authors propose that a child born in the lowest quintile in 1986 had a 9% chance of moving to the highest quintile. I think it’s safe to assume that more than 9% of them are _trying_ to get to the highest quintile (unless one takes a rather dim view of the poor, assuming 91% of them are inherently lazy or such), so if not all succeed, some element of chance is implied. This is, in any event, well off-topic except where it peripherally relates to Bricker’s “fuck the poor and if they can’t pay more in time and trouble and fees to vote, then fuck them _twice_” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8682 "2016-03-09T07:33:13Z")
A bit unfair to characterize bland indifference as hostility. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8683 "2016-03-09T12:59:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So, you’re saying it’s ALL due to will and desire to make the requisite sacrifices? No-one’s life is ever affected through chance? Right now, I am saying that the study you touted as discussing “luck” is actually discussing the comparative incidence of a phenomenon as it appears during two different time periods, and that you asserted otherwise, were refuted, and are now trying to avoid admitting error. Because that’s what you do. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8684 "2016-03-09T13:06:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In any case, just from the excerpt I quoted, the authors propose that a child born in the lowest quintile in 1986 had a 9% chance of moving to the highest quintile. I think it’s safe to assume that more than 9% of them are _trying_ to get to the highest quintile (unless one takes a rather dim view of the poor, assuming 91% of them are inherently lazy or such), so if not all succeed, some element of chance is implied. Some element of difference of will and ability is required. It’s not laziness, precisely – it’s the willingness to avoid instant self-gratification. It’s the willingness to save instead of spend, to go without fun things NOW as an investment towards THEN. That is, in almost complete measure, what holds people back. Of course, there are elements of luck. Someone can spend $1 on a lottery ticket and end up quite wealthy. But even then, there are people who squander those millions and end up, ten years after the win, penniless, because they couldn’t moderate their desire for instant self-gratification. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8685 "2016-03-09T13:09:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A bit unfair to characterize bland indifference as hostility. Bricker takes it a little beyond merely bland - I gather he’s well into _studied_ indifference at the very least, plus there’s that that vapid and at-least-twice-referenced “esteem too lightly” thing, in which he proposes that a too-casual exercise of one’s rights _means you deserve to have them taken away from you_. I have gathered over the years that Bricker is a practicing Catholic. I propose to him that church attendance is too casual, that Catholics should not be allowed to participate unless they suffer at least a little, lest they fail to fully appreciate the suffering of Christ. From now on, in order to take communion, Catholics must self-flagellate at least once a month, slapping a short whip across their own backs, and have the wounds to prove it. That will demonstrate they holds their religion in sufficient esteem. Bricker’s quite-rational response to this could easily include asking who the fuck am _I_ to suggest he’s not exercising his religion correctly and how dare I presume to suggest an imposition which, if written into law, would be interfering with his practices and in violation of his rights. He might even question my motives, wondering if it was a ploy to discourage membership in Catholic churches, and of course it would have that effect even if I repeatedly stated “oh, no, it’s really all in honour of the Christ”, without any real need on my part to describe _how_ Christ is being so honoured. I’ve just arbitrarily decided that lack of Christ-honouring is a serious problem that must be addressed. Now, rewrite the above paragraph, replacing me with Bricker, religious practice with voting, self-flagellation with having to lose a day of work to get an ID from some office elsewhere in your state, preventing dishonour to Christ with preventing voter fraud, and discouraging Catholics with discouraging likely Democrat-voters. Is it still blandly indifferent? ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8686 "2016-03-09T13:19:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not laziness, precisely – it’s the willingness to avoid instant self-gratification. It’s the willingness to save instead of spend, to go without fun things NOW as an investment towards THEN. That is, in almost complete measure, what holds people back… Cite? What holds this discussion back is not the lack of facts, but on the almost complete reliance on personal perspective. While it is probably true that “if I or mine did it, anyone can do it”, it is almost certainly false that everyone, or even most can do it, irrespective of will and sacrifice. Money is made in the cities. Poor people can’t afford to live in the cities or if they can, they spend huge amounts of time commuting. There will always be combinations of luck, ability, circumstance and will that allow some to succeed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8687 "2016-03-09T13:30:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Some element of difference of will and ability is required. I gather you are implicitly withdrawing your earlier “The cry of the liberal” remark. Certainly individual talent, drive and initiative play a large role in how one advances and how far one advances, but nevertheless there are random events outside the individual’s control - including being I daresay lucky enough to meet the right person at the right time who will later be a useful contact and help one get into the better school or better job or better neighborhood. Typically, the first people you “meet” who can help you along these lines are your own parents, and that’s pretty much the biggest lottery of all. > [@](#): > > But even then, there are people who squander those millions and end up, ten years after the win, penniless, because they couldn’t moderate their desire for instant self-gratification. Related to this, I was a bit skittish about the concept of “generational poverty”. Unless one can document that at least four generations back, all their relatives were poor (i.e. let’s say the entire living memory of one’s parents, so that their formative experiences were all in poverty, guiding significantly how you were raised), I’m not comfortable with the assumption. Someone could be dirt-poor but have a parent or grandparent who was once wealthy and pissed it all away because of a drug habit or bad investments. To me, the “generational poverty” concept overall vaguely suggests a genetic component to being a member of a permanent underclass, and that strikes me as unlikely. _Simpsons_ defective Y-Chromosome unlikely. Tangent, I realize. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8688 "2016-03-09T14:01:07Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Cite? > > What holds this discussion back is not the lack of facts, but on the almost complete reliance on personal perspective. > > While it is probably true that “if I or mine did it, anyone can do it”, it is almost certainly false that everyone, or even most can do it, irrespective of will and sacrifice. In a sense, this is true. But I don’t know how else to judge these things. I assert that it’s wise to not have a smartphone, for example, when a cheap flip phone serves the emergency purpose of having a cell phone and can be obtained very cheaply. The counter-argument is that everyone has smartphones, and you feel deprived and left out, perhaps? So should the ordinary person have the will to deny themselves the smartphone and save the money? Everyone on TV has nice furniture. Should I buy that furniture on credit so I have it too? I say it’s wise to not do that. My bookshelf growing up, and as a young adult, was planks of wood with cinderblocks. My friends had nicer bookshelves. And interest payments. I drove a fifteen-year-old car. My friends had nicer, newer cars. And interest payments. How do we measure whether anyone has the capacity to resist the lure of a newer car or a nice bookshelf? I say that anyone can, and they don’t – they make a choice to get nice things NOW even though they know that deferring gratification would be a better economic choice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8689 "2016-03-09T14:06:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I gather you are implicitly withdrawing your earlier “The cry of the liberal” remark. Certainly individual talent, drive and initiative play a large role in how one advances and how far one advances, but nevertheless there are random events outside the individual’s control - including being I daresay lucky enough to meet the right person at the right time who will later be a useful contact and help one get into the better school or better job or better neighborhood. Sure, luck can strike. As I mentioned before, a lottery ticket can change a life. But even then, there are plenty of stories of lottery winners who lose it all. Was that “bad luck,” or an inability to manage their desire for instant gratification? > [@](#): > > Related to this, I was a bit skittish about the concept of “generational poverty”. Unless one can document that at least four generations back, all their relatives were poor (i.e. let’s say the entire living memory of one’s parents, so that their formative experiences were all in poverty, guiding significantly how you were raised), I’m not comfortable with the assumption. Someone could be dirt-poor but have a parent or grandparent who was once wealthy and pissed it all away because of a drug habit or bad investments. > > To me, the “generational poverty” concept overall vaguely suggests a genetic component to being a member of a permanent underclass, and that strikes me as unlikely. _Simpsons_ defective Y-Chromosome unlikely. Why didn’t you object to it before now? I was not the one who advanced the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8690 "2016-03-09T14:43:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure, luck can strike. As I mentioned before, a lottery ticket can change a life. > > But even then, there are plenty of stories of lottery winners who lose it all. Was that “bad luck,” or an inability to manage their desire for instant gratification? They’re rarities by definition, not something I’d base a general comment on. > [@](#): > > Why didn’t you object to it before now? I was not the one who advanced the idea. I don’t particularly care who first raised the topic or when. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8691 "2016-03-09T14:53:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But even then, there are plenty of stories of lottery winners who lose it all. Was that “bad luck,” or an inability to manage their desire for instant gratification? Not enough information. Bad things happen to good people, sometimes completely outside of their control. It has been said, “Luck favors the prepared mind”. Would you agree with that statement? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8692 "2016-03-09T15:01:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > They’re rarities by definition, not something I’d base a general comment on. Not [rare](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2016/01/14/3739377/powerball-winners-bad-luck/) at all. Quite common. > [@](#): > > Landing a sudden windfall like the lottery often, counterintuitively, changes lives for the worst. The National Endowment for Financial Education estimates that as much as 70 percent of people who are abruptly flooded with cash lose all the money within several years. A study in Britain found that 44 percent of lottery winners’ earnings were spent after five years. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8693 "2016-03-09T15:04:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not [rare](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2016/01/14/3739377/powerball-winners-bad-luck/) at all. Quite common. I thought he meant “lottery winners” were rare. Not necessarily “lottery winners who lose it all”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8694 "2016-03-09T15:20:37Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I thought he meant “lottery winners” were rare. Not necessarily “lottery winners who lose it all”. It’s actually as close as we can come to a randomly selected group of people whose financial circumstances are greatly improved. If someone did a scientific study with the same number of people, I don’t think one could object because the sample size was too small. Also, the first study was not only about lottery winners, but folks who suddenly received a windfall from divorce settlement, inheritance, etc. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8695 "2016-03-09T16:26:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Everyone on TV has nice furniture. Should I buy that furniture on credit so I have it too? I say it’s wise to not do that. My bookshelf growing up, and as a young adult, was planks of wood with cinderblocks. My friends had nicer bookshelves. And interest payments. > > I drove a fifteen-year-old car. My friends had nicer, newer cars. And interest payments. > > How do we measure whether anyone has the capacity to resist the lure of a newer car or a nice bookshelf? I say that anyone can, and they don’t – they make a choice to get nice things NOW even though they know that deferring gratification would be a better economic choice. First of all, in that little digression about statistics, you were right and Bryan Ekers was totally wrong. Stats about what percentage from the bottom economic quintile make it to the top say nothing about how much luck was involved. However, I think there’s an aspect you’re overlooking in this current discussion about pulling onesself up out of poverty… the idea that you should scrimp and save and have old stuff but not be making interest payments and so forth. Did you invent that idea? Or did your parents teach it to you? Because it sounds like your parents (who sound like remarkable people) taught you the value of hard work, and then you applied that. Your success, like the success of nearly everyone who is successful, is due to a combination of your own hard work and skills and diligence, and some amount of luck. You were born in the US. Your parents didn’t die when you were 6 months old. You don’t have cerebral palsy. During the times that you lived in crappy neighborhoods growing up you were never hit by a bullet due to random gang violence. You (probably) had some good teachers in school who inspired you, etc, etc, etc. Recognizing that doesn’t mean diminishing what you have actually done, the hard work you have put in, the good things you have made out of your life. But what it should do is give you more sympathy for your fellow man who is maybe 5% less hard working and 5% less skilled than you, but also 20% unluckier in where they were born, who their parents were, what values where inculcated in them, how good a public education they happened to get, etc, etc. Not trying to be snide, but… isn’t that the Christian thing to do? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8696 "2016-03-09T16:32:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Not enough information. Bad things happen to good people, sometimes completely outside of their control. > > It has been said, “Luck favors the prepared mind”. Would you agree with that statement? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8697 "2016-03-09T16:43:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. Does that mean the prepared mind always has favorable outcomes? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8698 "2016-03-09T16:50:40Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > First of all, in that little digression about statistics, you were right and Bryan Ekers was totally wrong. Stats about what percentage from the bottom economic quintile make it to the top say nothing about how much luck was involved. Thank you very, very much. I doubt he will acknowledge it, but I remain convinced that readers are swayed by this kind of affirmation. I appreciate it. > [@](#): > > However, I think there’s an aspect you’re overlooking in this current discussion about pulling onesself up out of poverty… the idea that you should scrimp and save and have old stuff but not be making interest payments and so forth. Did you invent that idea? Or did your parents teach it to you? There are two answers. The general practice of frugality came from my parents, to be sure. But the specifics of interest as a poor way to waste money came much more from my own insight. I remember a specific instant: I was in fourth grade. I had a habit of striking up conversations with anyone. (Sometimes this led to embarrassment; in third grade I asked a lady in a shoe store what the word “groin,” meant) But I asked the man working outside a rental furniture store what “carrying charges” were. I thought it meant that they carried the furniture you rented for you to your house. He told me. I knew how to do percentages. I remember going home and writing a page of numbers for how much it cost to “carry” furniture. Not that this would have been news to my folks, of course. But the discussion had never really come up. > [@](#): > > Your success, like the success of nearly everyone who is successful, is due to a combination of your own hard work and skills and diligence, and some amount of luck. You were born in the US. Your parents didn’t die when you were 6 months old. You don’t have cerebral palsy. During the times that you lived in crappy neighborhoods growing up you were never hit by a bullet due to random gang violence. You (probably) had some good teachers in school who inspired you, etc, etc, etc. Recognizing that doesn’t mean diminishing what you have actually done, the hard work you have put in, the good things you have made out of your life. But what it should do is give you more sympathy for your fellow man who is maybe 5% less hard working and 5% less skilled than you, but also 20% unluckier in where they were born, who their parents were, what values where inculcated in them, how good a public education they happened to get, etc, etc. > > Not trying to be snide, but… isn’t that the Christian thing to do? To have sympathy for them? Sure. To declare that this sympathy relieves them of the need to expend some minimal effort to cast a vote? No. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8699 "2016-03-09T16:59:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Then perhaps there is a term of art that I don’t understand. I grew up poor. My father grew up poor, and his mother, a single parent, grew up poor, as did the preceding generations. In what specific way is that not “generational poverty?” Great, and what you would like to do is make sure that someone like your father would have to choose between a days wages (and so possibly making rent) and voting. But then I guess the fact that he might choose the former (what a flake) means that your father didn’t have any views or concerns that were worth being represented in the elected government. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8700 "2016-03-09T17:05:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Does that mean the prepared mind always has favorable outcomes? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=434) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=436)