# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 436
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8701 "2016-03-09T17:06:30Z")
Since we’re talking about generational poverty, allow me to explain. I’m not saying it’s genetic. Especially since I’m a product of it. 😃 It doesn’t have to be the result of more than one generation. All that matters, is the child grows up in poverty, with parents or caretakers that can’t or won’t provide them with examples, information, resources, and connections. It isn’t the same thing as a guy who loses his job and moves his family into a shitty apartment while they get back on their feet. Or a woman disowned by her parents who has to work two shitty jobs while she raises kids and gets a degree. Those people have the tools and education necessary to prepare their minds, as Bricker puts it, to succeed. But without those tools, it’s a trap that can trap generations of people in ignorance, desperation, and poverty. Take Donald Trump as an infant, and raise him in a ruined suburb of Detroit with no present father, and a mother that works a minimum wage job at WalMart to barely scrape by. He has none of the education, opportunities, connections, and examples that the real-world Trump used to achieve his success. He, might have done reasonably well, given his brash nature, but more likely, I’d say, he’d never have cultivated it. He’d certainly be more likely to be a used car salesman, than a presidential candidate. And this illustrates why Bricker, though poor, wasn’t of this sort. His father instilled upon him the training necessary to have a better shot. Which illustrates why Bricker is fortunate. If his father were common, he’d have been brought up in a San Salvador shantytown. Bricker doesn’t see this because he wants success to be entirely based on his personal choices, so he can dismiss the poor as layabouts and aggrandize himself as superior. Of course success is partially luck, and partially preparedness. And some of the poor are lazy bums. Believe it or not, some of the middle class and the rich are lazy bums too. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8702 "2016-03-09T17:11:49Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Great, and what you would like to do is make sure that someone like your father would have to choose between a days wages (and so possibly making rent) and voting. But then I guess the fact that he might choose the former (what a flake) means that your father didn’t have any views or concerns that were worth being represented in the elected government. No. That’s not an accurate description of the choice people face. My father would have said to himself, “I have a year to obtain this document. Here are the days I can do so without losing work.” If anyone faces the choice you describe, it’s because they waited until time was so short that they had no other options. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8703 "2016-03-09T17:14:46Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > And this illustrates why Bricker, though poor, wasn’t of this sort. His father instilled upon him the training necessary to have a better shot. Which illustrates why Bricker is fortunate. If his father were common, he’d have been brought up in a San Salvador shantytown. But my father WAS brought up in a San Salvador shantytown. Yet he succeeded. How does that fit with your theory? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8704 "2016-03-09T17:20:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. So, if some prepared minds have favorable outcomes, and other equally prepared minds do not, what accounts for the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8705 "2016-03-09T17:24:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So, if some prepared minds have favorable outcomes, and other equally prepared minds do not, what accounts for the difference? What, are you too stupid to think of anything or just being a disingenuous ass? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8706 "2016-03-09T17:26:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But my father WAS brought up in a San Salvador shantytown. Yet he succeeded. How does that fit with your theory? You are profoundly stupid when it comes to addressing your biases. Your father was uncommon. He got out. I’m not saying, you dimwit, that transcending this sort of poverty is impossible. It’s unlikely. Not everyone has the capacity and/or luck to do it. It’s really weird that you can’t understand that. It’s also really weird that you haven’t apologized for lying about my position earlier, when you said, I said, your father got where he was because of luck alone. I guess lying about my position comes easy to you, since you repeatedly did so against my requests to stop, in this very thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8707 "2016-03-09T17:29:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So, if some prepared minds have favorable outcomes, and other equally prepared minds do not, what accounts for the difference? Too little contextual information to answer. In chess, the answer is different than in motor cross racing. For each pursuit, luck favors the prepared, but preparation does not insulate the prepared participant from ill outcomes. Your current question can’t be answered as a general principle. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8708 "2016-03-09T17:29:50Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > What, are you too stupid to think of anything or just being a disingenuous ass? Drunky, we’re already dealing with one goofball, you’re just gonna be lost in the glare of the Bricker. You’d be better served bringing your goofball game after he’s retired from this thread again. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8709 "2016-03-09T17:31:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Too little contextual information to answer. In chess, the answer is different than in motor cross racing. For each pursuit, luck favors the prepared, but preparation does not insulate the prepared participant from ill outcomes. Your current question can’t be answered as a general principle. Obviously luck doesn’t exist as a force. But I think you’ll find that most people use it to speak of things outside of their control. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8710 "2016-03-09T17:32:29Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You are profoundly stupid when it comes to addressing your biases. > > Your father was uncommon. He got out. I’m not saying, you dimwit, that transcending this sort of poverty is impossible. It’s unlikely. Not everyone has the capacity and/or luck to do it. You assert that my success is due to the advantages my father gave me. I rebut this argument by pointing out that he lacked similar advantages. Your response is that he was uncommon. Why am I not uncommon, then? > [@](#): > > It’s also really weird that you haven’t apologized for lying about my position earlier, when you said, I said, your father got where he was because of luck alone. > > I guess lying about my position comes easy to you, since you repeatedly did so against my requests to stop, in this very thread. You are doing the same thing now: it’s luck, unless somehow you can prove it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8711 "2016-03-09T17:40:40Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Obviously luck doesn’t exist as a force. But I think you’ll find that most people use it to speak of things outside of their control. Sure. Gallant keeps his spare tire inflated and checks it every time he gases up the car. Goofus hasn’t touched the spare since he bought the car. It’s “bad luck,” to run over a roofing nail on the way to the job interview. But Gallant’s spare is ready to go on the car, and even with his bad luck he arrives on time. Goofus has a flat spare and is stranded for longer. Of course, the bad luck could have been a cement mixer running the light, putting either driver in the hospital regardless of their spare tire’s readiness. But the prepared person’s preparations lessen the impact of malign outside forces. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8712 "2016-03-09T17:47:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Too little contextual information to answer. In chess, the answer is different than in motor cross racing. For each pursuit, luck favors the prepared, but preparation does not insulate the prepared participant from ill outcomes. Your current question can’t be answered as a general principle. Let’s assume personal success, such as your father achieved. Do you suppose everyone, under similar circumstances, who followed his example would have a similar outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8713 "2016-03-09T17:50:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Let’s assume personal success, such as your father achieved. Do you suppose everyone, under similar circumstances, who followed his example would have a similar outcome? No, not everyone. Some might get hit by a cement mixer that ran a red light. But the vast majority would, yes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8714 "2016-03-09T17:52:20Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It requires no great measure of immodesty to be confident that my understanding of statistics and math is greater than Bricker’s, so thanks for the suggestion but I’m doing okay. > > In any case, just from the excerpt I quoted, the authors propose that a child born in the lowest quintile in 1986 had a 9% chance of moving to the highest quintile. I think it’s safe to assume that more than 9% of them are _trying_ to get to the highest quintile (unless one takes a rather dim view of the poor, assuming 91% of them are inherently lazy or such), so if not all succeed, some element of chance is implied. > > . Sorry to see that you’re doubling down on misinterpreting what that study was about. But no, there is no “implied” luck involved. They are talking about moving form the very bottom of the economic ladder to the very top in one generation. The fact that so few do can simply mean that it’s a very difficult thing to do. Luck can always be one explanation, but the authors make no mention of how much it might play in that particular process. Whether it matters in 0.1% of the cases or 90% of the cases, one cannot tell just from reading that article. Besides, other than winning the lottery, “luck” can be a very difficult thing to define. In the end, though, there is no reason any of us should be reading something into that study that isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8715 "2016-03-09T17:58:26Z")
Looked at the right way, this sort of thing actually empowers and honors our less worthy citizens. It affords them the opportunity to “go the extra mile” and prove their civic virtue! This is not offered to the smugly comfortable, since they have no meaningful impediments. And you don’t see \*them \*standing on line for hours to cast a vote. So, in a way, the Republicans offer a special advantage to those who are mostly trickled down upon, they get a chance to prove their value that others don’t get! Damned white of them! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8716 "2016-03-09T18:09:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, not everyone. Some might get hit by a cement mixer that ran a red light. Is bad fortune typically as catastrophic as being hit by a runaway cement mixer? > [@](#): > > But the vast majority would, yes. Are the vast majority those in similar circumstances who achieve less than your father thwarted only by sloth or lack of forethought and preparation? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8717 "2016-03-09T20:12:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > That’s not an accurate description of the choice people face. My father would have said to himself, “I have a year to obtain this document. Here are the days I can do so without losing work.” Finally, an attempt to circle back to relevance. > [@](#): > > If anyone faces the choice you describe, it’s because they waited until time was so short that they had no other options. _Anyone_? Can you say with confidence that what you describe applies to _every single person_ who has trouble meeting the enhanced voting requirements? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8718 "2016-03-09T20:14:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > thwarted only by sloth Thanks for making me think of the DMV clerks in _Zootopia_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8719 "2016-03-09T20:18:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Looked at the right way, this sort of thing actually empowers and honors our less worthy citizens. It affords them the opportunity to “go the extra mile” and prove their civic virtue! This is not offered to the smugly comfortable, since they have no meaningful impediments. And you don’t see \*them \*standing on line for hours to cast a vote. So, in a way, the Republicans offer a special advantage to those who are mostly trickled down upon, they get a chance to prove their value that others don’t get! > > Damned white of them! Since Republicans favour a good day’s pay for a good day’s work, it’s only fair the poor get _two_ votes! Unless you want to give the lazy and the hardworking the same reward, you filthy communist. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/8720 "2016-03-09T20:37:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is bad fortune typically as catastrophic as being hit by a runaway cement mixer? No. The cement mixer was merely an example, a proxy for unhelpful random events. > [@](#): > > Are the vast majority those in similar circumstances who achieve less than your father thwarted only by sloth or lack of forethought and preparation? Sloth and lack of forethought and lack of preparation and lack of willingness to delay gratification are the major factors. Occasionally someone may win the lottery – a proxy example for a series of favorable random events – or get hit by a cement truck. But the vast majority of people willing to put in the work, the savings, and the lack of gratification will succeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=435) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=437)