# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 459
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9161 "2016-04-14T21:02:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > . . . But if you’re running a Champions game, I’ll be right over. Any love for DC Heroes? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9162 "2016-04-14T21:08:09Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Any love for DC Heroes? I played DC Heroes for a bit, and I definitely liked the AP system. Strength AP - Weight AP = APs of distance you can throw something. Or Distance AP - Speed AP = the APs of time it takes to travel it. Other than that, I felt it had a flawed character generation system. And the AP thing, or the same concept anyway, is in the Mutants and Masterminds system (because each level doubles, so it lends itself to that sort of manipulation). But we had fun playing it years ago. Certainly better than the early Marvel system with the FASERIP stats and the chart. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9163 "2016-04-14T21:13:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Have you read the thread? > > For that matter, did you understand my post? > > No to both, right. Yes, I have read it, and have yet to see you present any convincing evidence that there is a real issue, much less that these types of laws meaningfully address it. Instead we get nonsensical moralizing about “skin in the game.” Like these people being disenfranchised don’t work and pay taxes or have the same rights as someone you consider properly deserving. Ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9164 "2016-04-14T21:15:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re wrong here. And I stated the less-flattering-to-you alternative, so I guess we’ll go with that. > [@](#): > > Gosh, Bry-bry, after you informed me you’re sure I’m lying, you complain that my view of you is mingled with a caricature? > > Let’s think hard about how that might have happened. Oh, I can only speculate about whatever childhood formative experiences you underwent, but your pattern was obvious after that “liberal heart of hearts” thing a few years back. You said something stupid and insulting, I pointed out in detail how you were wrong, you apologized, but within a few months you were using similar rhetoric - you had not learned from the experience but had simply reverted to your earlier position. I’ve seen you do this a few times. Someone on this board could present unassailable evidence against your position, you’ll back down briefly, but a few threads later you’ll be back at that position, sniping at liberal phantoms, then accusing various posters of _being_ liberal phantoms, until you get another defeat, withdraw and soon return with the same tired railing and ranting, accusing people who disagree with a law of wanting a dictatorship instead. > [@](#): > > If it’s got a good beat and you can dance to it, sure. W. H. Auden I am not. It’s genuinely not difficult to write simple satirical poetry. I suggest you might find it easier if you’re not sneering and sweating at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9165 "2016-04-14T21:19:32Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But we had fun playing it years ago. Certainly better than the early Marvel system with the FASERIP stats and the chart. I remember that system. Last time I played (1993 or so, probably) I random-rolled _everything_, trying for a chaos-character. I did pretty well, got a guy roughly on the same power level as Spider-Man. I called him… The Slob! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9166 "2016-04-14T21:20:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I remember that system. Last time I played (1993 or so, probably) I random-rolled _everything_, trying for a chaos-character. I did pretty well, got a guy roughly on the same power level as Spider-Man. > > I called him… The Slob! I once rolled zombie animation, and water walking. I called him, The Messiah! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9167 "2016-04-14T23:46:44Z")
> [@PigArcher](#): > > Yes, I have read it, and have yet to see you present any convincing evidence that there is a real issue, much less that these types of laws meaningfully address it. Instead we get nonsensical moralizing about “skin in the game.” Like these people being disenfranchised don’t work and pay taxes or have the same rights as someone you consider properly deserving. Ridiculous. Ok, let’s play a game. Here’s what you said: > [@PigArcher](#): > > So now we’re down to “dozens of illegal votes?” That’s quite a change from the shockingly high number of illegal votes that proponents of these laws usually state. > > So, can you provide evidence of these “dozens of illegal votes,” and that they are overwhelmingly Democratic? And for that matter, likely to put any candidate “over the edge?” If I can post links to previous posts by me in this thread that address what you posted above, namely: (1) I have always been discussing votes on the order of dozens, as opposed to any “shockingly high number.” (2) there is evidence of dozens of illegal votes cast in aggregate various elections (3) there are elections in the past fifty years in this country that would be changed by as few as 24 votes Then you will admit you were lying about having read this thread. Is that a deal? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9168 "2016-04-15T00:25:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I disagree. Those are lofty and aspirational goals, to be sure, but utterly without real world foundation. > > I do favor the restriction that no change in voting procedures should occur without an intervening election. So if any change is truly perceived as a “thumb on the scale,” then the current electorate, unburdened by that proposed change, can reject the legislators who offered it up. > > Beyond that: no. What? Recognizing that citizens have a stake in the outcome of elections in which they may vote (“skin in the game”) because said citizens _live in the reality of the society their voting choices determine_ is something you see as aspirational but unreal? And by your lights, if the currently powerful can put their thumb on the scale of electoral justice in a manner that would increase their power, and manage to keep it there through an election cycle despite efforts by the currently less powerful to remove it, that manner of cheating-to-be becomes validated and acceptable. Damn, you have some rather unsavory beliefs, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9169 "2016-04-15T00:27:49Z")
Dozens in _aggregate_ elections? So… lets say 199 votes (because 200+ would allow you to discard the tepid “dozens” in favour of “hundreds”) across… 20 elections? How many in an aggregate? Your other point talks about the “past fifty years”, and that could be a _thousand_ elections if we’re counting a broad range of federal, state and local votes… Was there ever a dozen in _one_ election? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9170 "2016-04-15T00:32:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok, let’s play a game. > > Here’s what you said: > > If I can post links to previous posts by me in this thread that address what you posted above, namely: > > (1) I have always been discussing votes on the order of dozens, as opposed to any “shockingly high number.” > > (2) there is evidence of dozens of illegal votes cast in aggregate various elections > > (3) there are elections in the past fifty years in this country that would be changed by as few as 24 votes > > Then you will admit you were lying about having read this thread. > > Is that a deal? Those are illegal votes. The people being impacted by these laws are entirely legal American citizens. By the thousands! This evidence has been offered to you but apparently not processed. (The impact on people using impersonation to cast illegal values is minimal, in that such persons, for all practical purposes, do not exist.) \* They\* are the one’s losing out here. Are they supposed to take one for the team, go the extra mile someone else does not? What about _their_ voter confidence? What confidence can they have, having just been openly and legally insulted by their legislature? Off the record, I admired this bit of rhetorical flim-flam… > [@](#): > > …there is evidence of dozens of illegal votes cast in aggregate various elections… The “aggregate”! Thats a beaut! How does one contradict such an iron-clad point! Yes, woefully, I accept the truth, that if you piled up all the votes and all the elections, you might find that there are as many as twenty-four. Which reminds me, got to call my brother, tell him not to use the same Powerball numbers as me. We both win, we got to share, that would be awkward… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9171 "2016-04-15T00:42:35Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > What? Recognizing that citizens have a stake in the outcome of elections in which they may vote (“skin in the game”) because said citizens _live in the reality of the society their voting choices determine_ is something you see as aspirational but unreal? > > And by your lights, if the currently powerful can put their thumb on the scale of electoral justice in a manner that would increase their power, and manage to keep it there through an election cycle despite efforts by the currently less powerful to remove it, that manner of cheating-to-be becomes validated and acceptable. > > Damn, you have some rather unsavory beliefs, for sure. Ok. You’re welcome to your opinion. But the laws continue in force. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9172 "2016-04-15T00:50:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. You’re welcome to your opinion. > > But the laws continue in force. You asked me to let you know when you do one of those, “insufferable prick” comments. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9173 "2016-04-15T00:57:23Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Dozens in _aggregate_ elections? > > So… lets say 199 votes (because 200+ would allow you to discard the tepid “dozens” in favour of “hundreds”) across… 20 elections? How many in an aggregate? Your other point talks about the “past fifty years”, and that could be a _thousand_ elections if we’re counting a broad range of federal, state and local votes… > > Was there ever a dozen in _one_ election? > > Just curious. When I discuss the death penalty, proponents thereof refuse to acknowledge that any innocent person has ever been put to death. I point out how many people on Death Row have been freed by work from the Innocence Project…where over prosecutorial objections DNA tests reveal that the accused could not have possibly committed the crime. And then I point out that there are plenty of people who were sentenced to death and whose crimes did not involve DNA evidence, or whose case evidence was not preserved for later testing, through accident or design. And I argue that we not be able to point to a single specific name, but we can certainly infer there have been some. No, say the death penalty supporters, that’s not proof. Who was the specific innocent person? Without that, they say, they can be no admission that such an innocent person exists. Isn’t that ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9174 "2016-04-15T00:58:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You asked me to let you know when you do one of those, “insufferable prick” comments. I did? You can stop. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9175 "2016-04-15T01:03:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I did? > > You can stop. So we rolling up that character? I see you as a Wolverine type, with close range illusion powers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9176 "2016-04-15T02:02:18Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well, I have asserted that The Right tends to be the advocate for aristocratic interests in today’s world, and that “21st century aristocrats are not bound by national borders.” > > The election of Obama seems to have driven The Right in America buck wild, motivating them to all kinds of nefarious, obstructionist schemes to strip the will of the people out of public policy making, to be replaced solely by the whims of their Aristocrat sponsors. Not being limited by national boundaries, wouldn’t they also seek to tilt things rightward in Canada? Maybe, but honestly I was answering your question as if it pertained to America by mistake, and now I am cobbling together some post-hoc justification to cover that up. Maybe you ought to toss a barb at me. > > But it is worth pointing out that the Voter ID phenomenon is in fact a creature of The Right, and Canada elected the hard-right Stephen Harper as PM in 2006. Maybe Canadian right-wingers are just as drawn to gerrymandering and voter restriction as their American counterparts? Maybe Canadian voter-ID laws are a consequence of the rightward shift in Canadian politics? Because 21st century Aristocracy will be a global affair? > > But now I am just speculating, without much insight into what is going on in Canada. **Ekers** probably could answer you better. Maybe you ought to toss a barb at me. #BARB!# ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9177 "2016-04-15T02:09:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. You’re welcome to your opinion. > > But the laws continue in force. Well, bless your heart! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9178 "2016-04-15T13:09:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t. I offered it up because it rhymes with “ID,” and the Left’s protest chants are at their most puissant with puerile rhymes (or asinine alliteration, a’ course). > > That said, though, why wouldn’t YOU welcome the tactic, since it avoids an onerous trip to the polls that takes away time from the seventeen different jobs that the aggrieved voter is simultaneously working – the ones that prevent the trip to obtain the free ID – and lessens the need to comply with ID requirements. Okay - either you think absentee ballots are an acceptable alternative to in-person voting in which case my previous point about fraud levels applies, or you _don’t_ think absentee ballots are an acceptable alternative to in-person voting in which case your suggestion that I recommend it to these [del]liberal strawmen[/del] protesters is irrelevant to the aforementioned previous point and you’re just being a dick – a dick who, it is noted, continues to focus on an area where very little fraud occurs while ignoring the area where more actual fraud occurs. > [@Bricker](#): > > Ok. You’re welcome to your opinion. > > But the laws continue in force. As did Jim Crow laws, for many, many years. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9179 "2016-04-15T16:35:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When I discuss the death penalty, proponents thereof refuse to acknowledge that any innocent person has ever been put to death. > > I point out how many people on Death Row have been freed by work from the Innocence Project…where over prosecutorial objections DNA tests reveal that the accused could not have possibly committed the crime. And then I point out that there are plenty of people who were sentenced to death and whose crimes did not involve DNA evidence, or whose case evidence was not preserved for later testing, through accident or design. And I argue that we not be able to point to a single specific name, but we can certainly infer there have been some. No, say the death penalty supporters, that’s not proof. Who was the specific innocent person? Without that, they say, they can be no admission that such an innocent person exists. > > Isn’t that ridiculous? Sounds like you shouldn’t have the death penalty because the odds of a false positive (an executed innocent), while low, are higher than acceptable. I take it you’re now arguing that you shouldn’t increase voter ID requirements because the odds of a false positive (a citizen left unable to vote), while low, are higher than acceptable? If you’re going to use the death penalty as a reference, you should try arguing that the death penalty is _needed_ because even if an innocent is executed, the greater good (preventing murderers from killing again) is more important. From there, you can argue that even if a citizen is denied a vote, strict voter ID laws are _needed_ because the greater good (ensuring the integrity of elections, or at least public confidence in the integrity of elections) is more important. The analogous action to determinedly denying that an innocent has ever been executed is determinedly denying that any citizen has even been denied his or her vote i.e. denying that a mechanism designed to punish criminals ever snagged an innocent. If someone is determinedly denying that an illegal vote was ever cast (I’m not sure who is actually doing this, but I’ll play along for the sake of argument), that would be comparable to someone claiming that no-one had ever committed a crime that was deserving of the death penalty, hence there is no need for the death penalty. Basically, your rhetoric has gone all Mobius Strip on you. Flat, with a twist. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9180 "2016-04-15T17:37:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (1) Every state is separately sovereign, and every state is itself a democratic republic. See US Constitution, Art IV (“The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government…”) > > (2) For those states that choose not to have Voter ID… guess how I feel? Perfectly content. They have decided they don’t weigh the consequences of an ultra-close election as highly as they do the ease of ballot access. And since that’s how they voters feel, I would never demand that they change to accommodate my different weighing of the issue. That’s how someone who believes in the idea of a democratic republic acts. (3) …unless the federal constitution that every state is bound to follow requires that it change. I’m not saying it does in this case, but it’s important to note that the U.S. Constitution binds the states, sovereignty notwithstanding, and that does include some issues of voting. Just making sure your list is complete. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=458) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=460)