# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 463
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9241 "2016-04-17T15:46:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh. he’s not telling you that you are wrong because it supports his argument. He just really likes telling you you’re wrong. Well, better he spend his time ranting at us here instead of in a courtroom where he could do some real damage. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9242 "2016-04-17T16:17:08Z")
> [@](#): > > “It’s just, I think, sad when a political party—my political party—has so lost faith in its ideas that it’s pouring all of its energy into election mechanics,” Republican State Senator Dale Schultz, a rare dissenter, said in 2014. “We should be pitching as political parties our ideas for improving things in the future rather than mucking around in the mechanics and making it more confrontational at our voting sites and trying to suppress the vote.” The Honest Republican. Signs and Wonders. The End Times are upon us! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9243 "2016-04-17T16:25:33Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Bricker, did you read that entire article? It seems pretty damning to me. Here’s the opening several paragraphs: > > Do you think it’s fair to describe Mr. Randle as “disenfranchised”, or say that his vote was “suppressed”? > > I also think this comment is particularly telling: I think Johnny was forced to use his real name. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9244 "2016-04-17T16:26:53Z")
If they had the power to persuade people to vote for them by reason and argument based on sound principle, no doubt they would. Or maybe it’s just too much work. Or maybe the unpersuaded are just by definition too dumb to be allowed to vote. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9245 "2016-04-17T21:04:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think Johnny was forced to use his real name. A man of his age is entitled to be addressed as Mister. Even if he’s black. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9246 "2016-04-17T21:50:44Z")
So is the judicial process a valid part of democracy or not? The fact that Bricker was careful to specify only the legislative process earlier makes me wonder if he recognizes the function of the Judiciary or not. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9247 "2016-04-18T00:39:14Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And some voter ID laws _have_ been found to be unconstitutional. There’s a big difference between some total crank who thinks that the IRS is unconstitutional (likely involving admiralty flags or what have you) and someone who looks at a dozen laws, 4 of which were found unconstitutional, the other 8 of which were upheld by 5-4 margins by a court that no longer exists, and argues that the other 8 are also “unconstitutional”. What possible difference could it make if the ruling were 5-4, 6-3, or 9-0? The result is still the same, is it not? You are a reasonable poster on this message board. Do you not hear the whining when posters declare that things they don’t agree with are UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!! It happens almost daily. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9248 "2016-04-18T00:52:18Z")
[Democratic voters in New York targeted using the same voter suppression tactics as in Arizona](http://usuncut.com/politics/something-amiss-new-york/): > [@](#): > > Hundreds of voters, most of them registered with the Democratic Party, are filing a class-action lawsuit against the New York State Board of Elections on Monday morning, claiming their voter registration was changed to “independent” or “no affiliation” without their consent. > > In closed primary states like New York, voters who are not registered as Democrats or Republicans can’t vote in those primaries. Voters identifying as independents wishing to vote in the Democratic primary had to change their registration to Democrat by October of 2015 — the earliest registration deadline in the country. > > This is almost exactly what happened in Arizona, when voters who had been eager to vote in the Democratic primary learned upon arrival to their designated polling place that their registration had been changed, making them ineligible to vote. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9249 "2016-04-18T00:56:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There isn’t even a _mechanism_ by which hardships alone would invalidate the law. It’ll take a judge (or panel of judges) agreeing that the hardships represent an undue burden which outweighs the government’s purpose for the law in the first place, and that’ll depend on how the narrowly the judges feel that the purpose need be tailored, and so forth. > [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. And generally, every single state has either passed that gateway, or has not. And when states have had judges agree the law is too burdensome, I’m fine with that. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So is the judicial process a valid part of democracy or not? The fact that Bricker was careful to specify only the legislative process earlier makes me wonder if he recognizes the function of the Judiciary or not. It was just yesterday, and you even responded to that post. Did you forget already? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9250 "2016-04-18T01:18:54Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What possible difference could it make if the ruling were 5-4, 6-3, or 9-0? > > The result is still the same, is it not? It is still the same as to what is actually the law of the land. It is very different as to how reasonable or unreasonable someone’s opinion is. If a law has not yet reached the supreme court, and we are arguing about whether or not we believe it will be upheld, and I say yes, and you say no, and then it turns out that the decision is 9-0 one way or the other, then that suggests that one of our arguments was WAY off, and if an identical law makes it up to the court in 10 years time, when 2 or maybe 3 justices have been replaced, it’s very unlikely that it will be overturned. If you don’t see that situation as any different from a 5-4 split, then I think you’re being a bit obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9251 "2016-04-18T01:30:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It was just yesterday, and you even responded to that post. Did you forget already? You have the wrong posts. This is my question from 9246: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So is the judicial process a valid part of democracy or not? The fact that Bricker was careful to specify only the legislative process earlier makes me wonder if he recognizes the function of the Judiciary or not. It was a follow-up to this: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You mean by the judicial process? That’s as much part of the mechanism of democracy as the legislature. Are you suggesting otherwise? Which was in response to this (note the specific phrase “legislative process”): > [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not “criticize laws,” that’s going on here. > > It’s calling for the laws to be struck down outside the legislative process. > > Isn’t it? Which incidentally was in response to this: > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I can think of a number of better words you could use like “I admit that the rhetorical device of accusing people who criticize laws of wanting dictatorships instead was never an accurate model of their beliefs, even hyperbolically, and for the sake of my own waning credibility, I’ve decided to retire that approach from my vernacular.” Which was prompted by this: > [@Bricker #9209](#): > > He, and you, are apparently comfortable with substituting your judgement of wise social policy for the results reached by the legislature and judiciary. What’s a better word than “fiat?” The problem with Bricker’s style of trying for precision to the point of pedantry is that when he _is_ precise, it’s a major tell that he’s knowingly leaving something out. Bricker specifically says “[it’s] calling for the laws to be struck down outside the legislative process” in the context of this being a _bad_ thing, even indicative of a desire to overthrow democracy, and he apparently is 100% serious about that - wanting a law to be struck down means you want to be a dictator. I thought it worthwhile to ask if he thought the judicial process was part of a functioning democracy or not. He mentioned it specifically in post 9209, but it somehow escaped him in the subsequent process. I’m sure he’ll admit that it is, if pressed, but he needs to _be_ pressed at times. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9252 "2016-04-18T01:33:50Z")
If the court is charged with deciding whether or not the ID law is too “burdensome”, what evidence do they consider? Or is “evidence” even relevant? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9253 "2016-04-18T01:36:20Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > … Do you not hear the whining when posters declare that things they don’t agree with are UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!! > > It happens almost daily. The Pit is available even unto you. And while you’re about it, why not also Pit people who say “less” when they mean “fewer”? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9254 "2016-04-18T01:38:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think Johnny was forced to use his real name. So his real name is not the name he has been using his whole life, but rather the name that appears on his birth certificate, which as far as we know, he had no way of knowing, and no reason to know, was different from the name he’s been using his entire life? (Bear in mind that he was born in 1942, presumably in Mississippi, likely to at-best-semi-literate parents.) And, a key point he makes is that he is legitimately worried that screwing around with his ID will potentially adversely affect other government services which he actively needs in order to survive. And your response is not any amount of empathy or sympathy or “I support the voter ID laws but also believe that a provision should be made for reasonable exceptions”, it’s just a casual implication that he’s been somehow defrauding the system all this time by not using his “real name”? Even after all this time, I’m kind of stunned by the naked lack of empathy. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9255 "2016-04-18T01:42:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If the court is charged with deciding whether or not the ID law is too “burdensome”, what evidence do they consider? Or is “evidence” even relevant? An excellent question. Were actual stories from the lives of people such as Mr. Randle/Randall discussed? I guess to a certain extent they could not have been, because they hadn’t happened yet, but could they be evidence in an appeal of some sort? Ie, the law is proposed, it is challenged, it goes to the SC, the SC says “not burdensome”, then an actual election cycle happens, the law is appealed, here are 10 cases of the actual burden that actually happened in real life, maybe now the court will change its mind? No idea if it could happen that way at all. Seems like it SHOULD be possible however… ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9256 "2016-04-18T02:30:24Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > It is still the same as to what is actually the law of the land. It is very different as to how reasonable or unreasonable someone’s opinion is. Are you actually serious? Someone’s opinion about reasonableness depends on the SCOTUS vote count? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9257 "2016-04-18T03:02:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So his real name is not the name he has been using his whole life, but rather the name that appears on his birth certificate, which as far as we know, he had no way of knowing, and no reason to know, was different from the name he’s been using his entire life? (Bear in mind that he was born in 1942, presumably in Mississippi, likely to at-best-semi-literate parents.) > > And, a key point he makes is that he is legitimately worried that screwing around with his ID will potentially adversely affect other government services which he actively needs in order to survive. > And your response is not any amount of empathy or sympathy or “I support the voter ID laws but also believe that a provision should be made for reasonable exceptions”, it’s just a casual implication that he’s been somehow defrauding the system all this time by not using his “real name”? > Even after all this time, I’m kind of stunned by the naked lack of empathy. I’m stunned by your casual acceptance that a man born with the name “Johnnie Marton Randall,” can simply decide that his name should be “Johnny Martin Randle,” and require that government agencies bow to his will. Everyone else in the free world has to get a name change through the courts, but Randall, according to you, can simply show up and announce his true name. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9258 "2016-04-18T03:48:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m stunned by your casual acceptance that a man born with the name “Johnnie Marton Randall,” can simply decide that his name should be “Johnny Martin Randle,” and require that government agencies bow to his will. > > Everyone else in the free world has to get a name change through the courts, but Randall, according to you, can simply show up and announce his true name. In California, at least (and I believe it’s true in other states) you can change your name on your own, and use the new name in many official documents. For some documents, you have to include your old name and a DBA. But in other documents, you can change your name as you will. Voting registration – again, in California – is one of those. I can register to vote as “Magister Euripides MacGonigle” and so long as the data is otherwise correct and true, and so long as I don’t register in other names also, it’s valid here. No one looks these things up; there is no cross-check against the census. This is what happens, hundreds (thousands?) of times a day, when people get married and change their names to match their spouse’s names. No court appearance is necessary. (Rude names at your expense, just because.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9259 "2016-04-18T05:12:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > You have the wrong posts. This is my question from 9246: > > It was a follow-up to this: > > Which was in response to this (note the specific phrase “legislative process”): > > Which incidentally was in response to this: > Which was prompted by this: > > The problem with Bricker’s style of trying for precision to the point of pedantry is that when he _is_ precise, it’s a major tell that he’s knowingly leaving something out. Bricker specifically says “[it’s] calling for the laws to be struck down outside the legislative process” in the context of this being a _bad_ thing, even indicative of a desire to overthrow democracy, and he apparently is 100% serious about that - wanting a law to be struck down means you want to be a dictator. I thought it worthwhile to ask if he thought the judicial process was part of a functioning democracy or not. He mentioned it specifically in post 9209, but it somehow escaped him in the subsequent process. > > I’m sure he’ll admit that it is, if pressed, but he needs to _be_ pressed at times. Either way, did you miss the part you quoted (emphasis added): > [@Bricker](#): > > He, and you, are apparently comfortable with substituting your judgement of wise social policy for the results reached by the legislature and judiciary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9260 "2016-04-18T05:34:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Everyone else in the free world has to get a name change through the courts, but Randall, according to you, can simply show up and announce his true name. So, in the history of the free world, the number of persons who have successfully managed a legal name change, in all the various jurisdictions, precincts, provinces, departments and ridings…in the _aggregate_, mind you!..is less than one, specifically, zero. That is preposterous. Thereby, having proven you wrong on a trivial and largely irrelevant and tangential point, I invoke the\*\* Bricker\*\* Principe of Rhetorical Victory and declare your argument a seeping puddle of stinky goo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=462) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=464)