# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 467
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9321 "2016-04-19T03:08:28Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I kind of fantasized that this was _my_ job here, but since you’ve been here more than 15 years longer than me, you’re obviously going to continue to be in charge of this initiative, curse you. Just think of me as a kind of loyal canine sidekick, always willing to lend a helping paw, or at least enthusiastically wagging its tail when you post. Heck, sane Americans need all the hope they can get these days, so I make no claim to a monopoly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9322 "2016-04-19T15:13:27Z")
Well, it’s been twelve hours. Obviously Bricker is not only reeling from his latest beating, he’s run screaming to the graves of his ancestors and thrown himself across them, weeping piteously and asking between choked sobs “oh, why won’t those dumb poopyheads realize that I just wanna be their _friend?_ boo-hoo-hoo…” \* \*Scenario not assumed to have happened. For entertainment purposes only. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9323 "2016-04-19T15:28:11Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, it’s been twelve hours. Obviously Bricker is not only reeling from his latest beating, he’s run screaming to the graves of his ancestors and thrown himself across them, weeping piteously and asking between choked sobs “oh, why won’t those dumb poopyheads realize that I just wanna be their _friend?_ boo-hoo-hoo…” \* > \*Scenario not assumed to have happened. For entertainment purposes only. Twelve hours since what? Has some weighty question posed to me been left unanswered? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9324 "2016-04-19T15:44:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Twelve hours since what? Has some weighty question posed to me been left unanswered? I can only roughly estimate the number of questions you’ve left unanswered, though in fairness you have a _lot_ of opponents throwing a _lot_ of questions at you so some will be missed in the shuffle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9325 "2016-04-19T16:02:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I can only roughly estimate the number of questions you’ve left unanswered, though in fairness you have a _lot_ of opponents throwing a _lot_ of questions at you so some will be missed in the shuffle. You should subtract from that estimate any questions that are answered, but discarded because you have concluded I am lying. Or, if that’s an acceptable rejoinder, then I guess I don’t need to worry about supporting my claim that you are a dictator-wanna-be. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9326 "2016-04-19T16:30:04Z")
As Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I swear I thought he was kidding. A tenuous proposition, to be sure, Republican humor being what it isn’t. **Bricker** , take a break. Relax, put your feet up, have nice cup chamomile tea, maybe read some P.G. Wodehouse and Doug Adams. No more Dr. Pepper, you can’t handle it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9327 "2016-04-19T16:35:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You should subtract from that estimate any questions that are answered, but discarded because you have concluded I am lying. > > Or, if that’s an acceptable rejoinder, then I guess I don’t need to worry about supporting my claim that you are a dictator-wanna-be. Bricker, you talk about how you like to post things to convince “lurkers” that your position is correct. I am pretty much exactly the lurker you are talking about. I have (for some reason) read every post in this thread. By your actions, I have gone from not caring about voter ID very much at all, to agreeing that the implementation should be looked at, as it is definatley implemented in an unfair and unbalanced way. You are obviously highly intelligent, you make amazing arguments. You are probably the best versed on these boards in legal matters. So when I see you behaving like a child, I know that you have no actual argument to go on. I must conclude instead, that you are simply trolling them in this thread, and that is fine, it’s the pit, that’s allowed. On the other hand, it makes me think less of you, and any future arguments you may make. I only ask, you stop with the blatentley disingenuous arguments, and go back to using actual logic and fact to refute your debaters, not silly statements that you make up to refute, that I know you are not stupid enough to actually believe that your opponents are making the arguments you “believe” that they are making. Anyway, I gotta get back to work, just maybe keep in mind that you are doing a very poor job of fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9328 "2016-04-19T17:48:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not exactly. > > It doesn’t count because it’s the kind of outlier set of circumstances that society is prepared to accept. You might discover a fifteen year old who is mature, intelligent, and capable of understanding short- and long-term consequences, but we do not tear down the legal structures that prohibit her from signing enforceable contracts. We do allow her to petition the court for a legal emancipation, however. > > In like manner, we don’t tear down a perfectly acceptable ID structure because a guy never realized how his name was spelled. We allow him to file a name change with the court to fix it. But your analogy fails because this sort of outlier, if not this specific outlier, is precisely what the actual scuzzy intent of the law was. For instance, as a society of laws, we certainly need to have and respect laws. So I’m sure there are laws that cover who is eligible for certain medical procedures under various Medicaid/Medicare/VA programs. And given how complicated the world is, I’m sure there are people who were denied life-saving medical procedures due to what seem like ridiculous technicalities. Because that’s how it’s always going to be in any sufficiently large and complicated system. But there’s a world of difference between that and a situation in which a system was generally functioning fine, and then a group of politicians deliberately changed the regulations to make them more onerous and difficult, doing so with a veneer of legitimate justification, but with the acknowledged-by-all scuzzy motive of denying medical care to their political opponents. And then after that, a 76-year-old man whose insulin was paid for all his life suddenly can’t get insult because suddenly he’s an outlier even though he had never before been an outlier. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9329 "2016-04-19T17:52:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m mildly curious when “constitutional” and “unconstitutional” as adjectives became the sole property of the various supreme courts. Is there a trademark issue at play? > > This is how I picture a reasoned exchange: > > A: Law X is unconstitutional. > B: Not according to the prevailing SCOTUS ruling _Rubber v. Glue_. Don’t forget that a reasoned exchange can also include: C: But the SCOTUS dishonestly and tendentiously misinterpreted the Constitution in that case, for reasons X, Y and Z. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9330 "2016-04-19T19:56:38Z")
Got me wondering. Couple times,\*\* Bricker\*\* has said things that I interpreted to be snarkasm, seeing as how no reasoning person could believe such nonsense. Like, a couple times he has said something to the effect that Democrats would now have to do without the boost they get from illegal voting. Now, I know _some_ of the knuckle-walking Trog Republicans believe that, heard them say so. Sort of naturally follows from their core mythology. So, what the heck, go ahead and ask: **Bricker** , if you’re out there…give it to me straight. You believe that? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9331 "2016-04-19T20:10:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I only ask, you stop with the blatentley disingenuous arguments, and go back to using actual logic and fact to refute your debaters, not silly statements that you make up to refute, that I know you are not stupid enough to actually believe that your opponents are making the arguments you “believe” that they are making. If i may ask your opinion, when was Bricker using actual logic and fact to refute his debaters in this thread (and if not this thread, in any thread of similar topic)? I realize it’s a Pit thread, so he was never under any obligation (or indeed expectation) to do so, and indeed his first post in this thread: > [@Bricker](#): > > Bah. You lost. It’s legal, it has widespread support, and it’s happening. It’s not anti-democracy. It’s an obvious and prudent move, and there’s zero, zip, nada, and also zilch you can do to change this trend. … doesn’t exactly suggest he started with a high tone which he gradually let sour. I cheerfully admit, I _haven’t_ read every post in this thread. My first was #128 and my involvement has been intermittent at times. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9332 "2016-04-19T20:23:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Got me wondering. Couple times,\*\* Bricker\*\* has said things that I interpreted to be snarkasm, seeing as how no reasoning person could believe such nonsense. Like, a couple times he has said something to the effect that Democrats would now have to do without the boost they get from illegal voting. > > Now, I know _some_ of the knuckle-walking Trog Republicans believe that, heard them say so. Sort of naturally follows from their core mythology. So, what the heck, go ahead and ask: **Bricker** , if you’re out there…give it to me straight. > > You believe that? Yes. But since the effect they get is so tiny as to be insignificant, in the vast majority of cases there will be no difference in outcomes. In other words, for the vast majority of elections, the Democrats’ “doing without” results will be identical to the “doing with” results. However, in extremely rare cases, an ultra-close election may happen, such as Indiana’s 8th Congressional in 1984, decided by four votes. In such a circumstances, the lack of the few dozen non-citizen, felon, or other illegal votes might indeed swing the result to the D side. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9333 "2016-04-19T20:24:55Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But your analogy fails because this sort of outlier, if not this specific outlier, is precisely what the actual scuzzy intent of the law was. Why, specifically, is that dispositive? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9334 "2016-04-19T20:32:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …In such a circumstances, the lack of the few dozen non-citizen, felon, or other illegal votes might indeed swing the result to the D side. That last sentence? Huh? WTF? Rewrite desk, stat! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9335 "2016-04-19T20:54:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That last sentence? Huh? WTF? Rewrite desk, stat! Oops. The PRESENCE of a few such votes might swing it to the D side, or in the alternative the lack of such votes might swing it to the R side. You can fix it in time for the city edition. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9336 "2016-04-19T20:58:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oops. > > The PRESENCE of a few such votes might swing it to the D side, or in the alternative the lack of such votes might swing it to the R side. > > You can fix it in time for the city edition. I’m guessing this paper is written in Comic Sans. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9337 "2016-04-19T21:50:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If i may ask your opinion, when was Bricker using actual logic and fact to refute his debaters in this thread (and if not this thread, in any thread of similar topic)? I realize it’s a Pit thread, so he was never under any obligation (or indeed expectation) to do so, and indeed his first post in this thread: > > … doesn’t exactly suggest he started with a high tone which he gradually let sour. > > I cheerfully admit, I _haven’t_ read every post in this thread. My first was #128 and my involvement has been intermittent at times. I own a business, so I don’t have time to get drawn into this. I pretty much just read pit threads to remind myself how lucky I am that I get to work with dogs. (I have a dog on my lap right now as I type this one handed.) That being said. Bricker is not wrong when he say’s that the laws are not unconstitutional. It is actually useful to keep that in mind, as by definition, an unconstitutional law is no longer in effect. Other than the first and last sentence of his first post to this thread, it is merely factual. The first is merely a “pleasantry” and the last is his opinion. Nearly everything I know about voter ID laws has come from this thread, and Bricker has probably given as much factual information to support his position as any other single poster. (I could be wrong, and I am sure the aggregate of other posters outweighs his contribution, but he is certainly prolific and informative.) In fact, really the only major thing I object to in his arguments is insisting that anyone who feels a law should be changed wishes the law changed by fiat. If anyone is actually arguing this, then I am on his side. As I have not seen anyone arguing this, I feel Bricker is on the wrong on this. Quick show of hands who would advocate anyone following this thread to do more than a call to congresscritters or a peaceful demonstration. I assume most would be happy if people just spent a moment thinking about the issue on their way to the ballot box. If anyone is actually advocating anything more, then “Bricker, sic 'em! They have their hands up.” While I am here though, two things that I would love to see addressed. Absentee ballots and fingerprint for ID. Fingerprints have been floated a couple of times, but were shot down by Bricker for two reasons. The first is that people in this thread were against it. This is slightly true, but I only remember Czarcasm making a comment about it, and I think he was being Czacarstic. The second is the “left leaning EFF” that Bricker has brought up a few times. Now I don’t know much about EFF, but I believe they are only left leaning because they were formed in reaction to a conservative led administration that was expanding surveillance, and I am sure they aren’t huge fans of the current admin either, as Obama didn’t exactly put all the spy toys away when he was inaugurated. Left leaning does not mean that the left listens to them, so I doubt that the EFF is a stumbling block. Absentee ballots have also been mentioned as being much more problematic about fraud. I would like to see Brickers reasoning that they do not cause much more damage to the integrity of election than lack of voter ID, and what reasons he feels that they should be kept. I also have to admit that I resent the esteeming of the vote thing, as I have never spent more than 10 minutes at the polling place, it is less than a 5 minute walk from my house, and is on my way to or from work. Voting is exceptionally easy for me, so according to Bricker, I shouldn’t be allowed to. Now to be fair, when I hear stories of people waiting in line for 7 hours, I think “Wow, and their vote only counts as much as mine?” and I am not sure that I would stand in line that long for something that ultimately is very unlikely to be consequential. Anyway, really need to get back to work, checked out 5 clients while I was composing this (including the dog I was holding at the beginning of the post), so I hope it’s not too rambling. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9338 "2016-04-19T22:07:06Z")
Thank you for your response. I’ll post my specific points of contention presently. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9339 "2016-04-19T22:18:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Thank you for your response. I’ll post my specific points of contention presently. Just FYI, I am actually against the effects that voter ID laws are having, but I feel that the best way of rectifying the situation is through the legislature. The laws, as Bricker has shown, do not have any of the attributes that would get them struck down as unconstitutional, and “don’t be a jerk” isn’t in the constitution. I would be for a national voter ID, if that would be politically possible ( I am sure it is not). I would personally feel the best interim solution would be for a fingerprint to be accepted in the case that appropriate ID cannot be shown. I would not be against a court reading that into the existing voter ID laws. I do feel that any laws that effect voters should be more than nutral, but should be designed to be more inclusive. The objective should be to get as many people to voice their opinion at the ballot as possible. Anyway, I am done for the evening. I have a bunch of stuff to do before I can go home, and I don’t really have time for this there either. Hopefully, if there is more you would like from me, I can find some time in the morrow to respond. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9340 "2016-04-19T23:18:24Z")
Yours is an entirely reasonable point of view. Alas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=466) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=468)