# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 480
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9581 "2016-05-31T20:36:15Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Tricky. Suppose someone kills two people in an ambush using a knife, but is never convicted for any crime. (Yeah, I know, really wild hypothetical, but go with it…) > > Okay, the guy in question is “not a murderer.” > > But a murder did happen. The guy wasn’t convicted of a crime, but there was a crime. Not seeing how this relates. Can you walk me through it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9582 "2016-05-31T21:20:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The link in the link points to an _opinion_ that acquittal would depend on a constitutional interpretation. No, it didn’t. The author was claiming that there was a similar line of reasoning [to Citizens United] being used by McDonnell’s lawyer, not that it was a constitutional issue. Here’s the [Washington Post’s article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/mcdonnell-can-remain-free-while-supreme-court-decides-on-review/2015/08/31/60a20946-4ced-11e5-902f-39e9219e574b_story.html) on the SCOTUS hearing. You will not find the word “constitution” anywhere in the article. (Your link, btw, was to an opinion piece, not a news article.) So, no, **Bricker** was not “pontificating” about “constitutional” matters in that case. Anyone here can go back to that thread and see for himself. I’m not going to re-litigate it in this thread. Feel free to have the last word, if you so desire. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9583 "2016-05-31T23:01:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I won’t defend **Bricker**. If that were actually the sum and summary of his stance, he could simply have fucking said so, instead of giving us a 9,500 post thread full of his bullshit doubletalk. > > Instead, he’s been playing mumblety-peg with the issue, trying to throw his knife as close as possible to voter suppression, rather than being transparently against it. > > It’s like a racist pretending to be scientific and citing “bell curve” statistics and noting political corruption in Africa, always pretending it’s only about the evidence. Again, I think you’re being entirely unfair. Bricker has been very clear that he supports voter ID laws, but opposes bunches of other things. So if a law was proposed that was not a voter ID law, what actual reason is there to think he would support it, other than the general principle that he’s a poopyhead? And he hasn’t been evasive about this, it just hasn’t come up munch, because most of the discussion in this thread has (not surprisingly) been about the issue where he disagrees with everyone else, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9584 "2016-06-01T02:15:11Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Not seeing how this relates. Can you walk me through it? We can say that the lying to Congress to prompt the Iraq war was “criminal” because “a crime occurred.” We don’t get to say (in perfect pedantry) that any single individual “committed a crime.” But a crime occurred; the lying testimony was “criminal.” (At very least, perjury under oath.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9585 "2016-06-01T02:20:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Again, I think you’re being entirely unfair. . . . Well, you I respect and admire, and even agree with sometimes… And I admit readily that I detest **Bricker** with loathing and nausea. So maybe I’m not being fair. But he’s certainly not making himself clear. He could have distanced himself from voter suppression much more transparently than he actually has. Most of us have no problem being clear on these kinds of things. I support labor unions…but absolutely disdain union violence, as has been seen in certain strikes and protests. I am disgusted with Donald Trump…and have no trouble at all condemning the idiots who protest his appearances by throwing water-bottles into crowds. I believe very strongly in Israel’s national right to exist…but condemn the current government and P.M. and consider settlement expansion to be a threat to peace. It isn’t that hard! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9586 "2016-06-01T07:45:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it didn’t… Feel free to have the last word, if you so desire. So you stand by your claim that the opinions of two Dopers outweigh a unanimous appeals court AND, presumably 4 of 8 Scotus justices? … Or will you adopt the pretense that you refuse to read text that’s not in font-size 2? (I agree that varying font size, all-caps, etc. are ugly but have learned that key text needs to be emphasized for some of the dolts around here.) And nice job with the “last word” snark, dismissing in advance any attempt to point out flaws in your post. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9587 "2016-06-01T14:07:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, you I respect and admire, and even agree with sometimes… And I admit readily that I detest **Bricker** with loathing and nausea. So maybe I’m not being fair. > > But he’s certainly not making himself clear. He could have distanced himself from voter suppression much more transparently than he actually has. Most of us have no problem being clear on these kinds of things. > > I support labor unions…but absolutely disdain union violence, as has been seen in certain strikes and protests. I am disgusted with Donald Trump…and have no trouble at all condemning the idiots who protest his appearances by throwing water-bottles into crowds. I believe very strongly in Israel’s national right to exist…but condemn the current government and P.M. and consider settlement expansion to be a threat to peace. > > It isn’t that hard! **Bricker** , like certain lawyers and other folk, likes to use the Socratic method when debating. It can be very annoying\*, but it’s a valid debate technique. That method does not necessarily lead the person using it to craft a clear position of his own, since he is generally trying to convince someone of the error or weak points in that person’s argument. \*I often find it very, very annoying. Especially when combined with gloating. But IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9588 "2016-06-01T14:51:56Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, you I respect and admire, and even agree with sometimes… And I admit readily that I detest **Bricker** with loathing and nausea. So maybe I’m not being fair. > > But he’s certainly not making himself clear. He could have distanced himself from voter suppression much more transparently than he actually has. Most of us have no problem being clear on these kinds of things. One of Bricker’s habits is to argue at great length about one specific part of an issue in which he disagrees with the dominant board position without ever bothering to mention what he thinks about the rest of the issue. Whether it’s just because he has blinders, and it doesn’t even occur to him that people are going to care or are going to make assumptions, or whether it’s a quasi-deliberate ploy to somehow give him an edge is unclear to me. So the number of times in this thread he has stated that the only “voter-suppression” laws he supports are voter ID laws is greater than zero, it’s just not very high compared to the total number of posts in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9589 "2016-06-01T15:45:07Z")
Not about him being right. About you being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9590 "2016-06-01T17:30:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Not about him being right. About you being wrong. Huh? Context? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9591 "2016-06-01T18:57:32Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Huh? Context? I’ll paraphrase what I believe brother **'luce** is saying, most likely in support of your previous post: For **Bricker** , the enjoyment of debate appears not to be a matter of clarifying his own position, but instead a matter of disproving yours. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9592 "2016-06-01T19:02:45Z")
Just so. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9593 "2016-06-01T19:58:02Z")
For what it’s worth, ignoring ElvisL1ves does not strike me as particularly petty. It may in fact represent a rational decision about how to allocate one’s finite time. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9594 "2016-06-01T22:32:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Bricker** , like certain lawyers and other folk, likes to use the Socratic method when debating. He likes to _try_. But there’s no need to play along; that only encourages him. Try it on _him_, though, and all you get is indignation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9595 "2016-06-02T23:46:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I wish you people would stop making me defend Bricker… But he has repeatedly made clear in this thread that while he supports voter ID laws, he does not necessarily also support other laws or policies relating to things like restricting voting hours, despite the fact that they seem part and parcel of the same Chicanery to the rest of us. Correct. I have been clear, and repeated multiple times, that I am defending Voter ID laws, and not other aspects of election law or procedure changes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9596 "2016-06-02T23:47:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, you I respect and admire, and even agree with sometimes… And I admit readily that I detest **Bricker** with loathing and nausea. So maybe I’m not being fair. > > But he’s certainly not making himself clear. He could have distanced himself from voter suppression much more transparently than he actually has. Most of us have no problem being clear on these kinds of things. > > I support labor unions…but absolutely disdain union violence, as has been seen in certain strikes and protests. I am disgusted with Donald Trump…and have no trouble at all condemning the idiots who protest his appearances by throwing water-bottles into crowds. I believe very strongly in Israel’s national right to exist…but condemn the current government and P.M. and consider settlement expansion to be a threat to peace. > > It isn’t that hard! I have equally clearly said the same things about Voter ID vs other election law and procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9597 "2016-06-03T00:57:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have equally clearly said the same things about Voter ID vs other election law and procedure. It’s hardly a principled stand you’re taking. You’re just declaring you’re against X, by saying stuff you support isn’t X. No Scotsman would ever stoop so low. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9598 "2016-06-03T04:18:50Z")
He would if there were a dime on the floor! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9599 "2016-06-03T05:15:46Z")
FWIW, I favor voter ID requirements! _Provided that those requirements are instituted carefully and fairly with the goal of improving democracy, not impeding it_ — but impeding democracy is in fact the deliberate goal of Republiopathic voter laws. Especially laughable is the claim that Republiopathic anti-voter measures increase citizen confidence in the correctness of electoral outcomes. :smack: Instead, the exact opposite is true. I and many hundreds of thousands of others believe that suppression efforts, including but not limited to malicious voter ID laws, have changed important electoral outcomes away from the will of the common citizen to the desires of the elite groups less affected by GOP malice. **Bricker** is well aware of the malicious design of voter ID laws (though he pretends to be stupid about it), and hides behind a lawyer’s defense: “If it can’t be prosecuted, it’s ‘legal’; if it’s legal it’s moral; your side lost. Ha ha ha!” ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9600 "2016-06-03T10:40:44Z")
In New York we require first time voters to provide ID. After that, their signature is good. Think about it. Do banks require an ID each time they pay one of your checks? No. They do, however, compare the signature on a check to the signature on file. As people age, their signatures change. NYS does a clever thing and images the most current signature for use in the next election. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=479) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=481)