# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 492
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9821 "2016-08-03T19:28:21Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > …This is America–life is supposed to be difficult!.. Wait, what? Should we have a program in place to find out who’s got it too easy, and toughen things up a little? Gosh, who in America has it “too easy”? Wow, tough one… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9822 "2016-08-03T19:57:07Z")
There’s an important definitional question. Bob hates black people as a group, and is willing to take actions to hurt black people, for no reason other than to hurt them. Is he a white supremacist? Jane knows that white people agree with her more than black people, and is willing to take actions to hurt black people in order to get her own way. Is she a white supremacist? I think both of them are: if you’re deliberately taking actions that advance the interests of white people as a whole over those of black people as a whole, “white supremacy” seems to be a good descriptor for you. If it isn’t, we need another word to describe people willing to hurt a group by race in order to advance their own interests. I’m not too concerned about ultimate motivations. (Now: cue the terrible analogy gotcha questions!) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9823 "2016-08-03T20:09:03Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > And I have to ask why you feel that the Republican Party is infected by “white supremasicm”, when looking at history shows clearly that the Democrats are the ones who have championed white supremacy from the post-Civil War days to the present. Sure, if you only read history up to 1968 or so. If this is the case, I feel it my duty to inform you: 1. Astronauts have visited the moon. 2. The Beatles have broken up and two of them are dead. 3. A singer named Michael Jackson popularized a dance step called the Moonwalk. 4. Michael Jackson is also dead. I hope this has been informative. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9824 "2016-08-03T20:11:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Wait, what? Should we have a program in place to find out who’s got it too easy, and toughen things up a little? Gosh, who in America has it “too easy”? Wow, tough one… Not us folks out in CA. No sir-ee! We’re suffering through one of the worst droughts in history and have to let our grass go brown just so we can keep our pools filled!! Talk about suffering… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9825 "2016-08-03T20:12:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That I was right then and am right now. Your misplaced confidence is Trumpian in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9826 "2016-08-03T20:16:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s an important definitional question. > > Bob hates black people as a group, and is willing to take actions to hurt black people, for no reason other than to hurt them. Is he a white supremacist? Not necessarily. Bob could be an Asian guy who just really hates black people. Hurting them could be so important to him that the resulting benefits, if any, to other groups doesn’t even occur to him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9827 "2016-08-03T20:18:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Not necessarily. Bob could be an Asian guy who just really hates black people. Hurting them could be so important to him that the resulting benefits, if any, to other groups doesn’t even occur to him. Fair point. Add to the scenario the belief that in hurting black people, he’s helping white people, and that’s his ultimate goal. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9828 "2016-08-03T20:52:18Z")
Again, white majority does not equal white supremacy. Some of you seem to refuse to believe that America has a culture – a white majority culture that most minorities and immigrants assimilate into (if they want to be “American”, and want to be successful). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9829 "2016-08-03T20:58:36Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Again, white majority does not equal white supremacy. > > Some of you seem to refuse to believe that America has a culture – a white majority culture that most minorities and immigrants assimilate into (if they want to be “American”, and want to be successful). Deliberately trying to make it harder for black people to vote because they want fewer black people to vote does equal white supremacism. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9830 "2016-08-03T20:59:20Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Again, white majority does not equal white supremacy. > > Some of you seem to refuse to believe that America has a culture – a white majority culture that most minorities and immigrants assimilate into (if they want to be “American”, and want to be successful). I’ll grant that there is an American culture, that immigrants not only assimilate into, but also add to and enrich. It is NOT a “white majority culture.” (If it is, we are doing something so very, very wrong.) Those who wish for a “white majority culture” are the white supremacists. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9831 "2016-08-03T20:59:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s an important definitional question. > > Bob hates black people as a group, and is willing to take actions to hurt black people, for no reason other than to hurt them. Is he a white supremacist? > > Jane knows that white people agree with her more than black people, and is willing to take actions to hurt black people in order to get her own way. Is she a white supremacist? > > I think both of them are: if you’re deliberately taking actions that advance the interests of white people as a whole over those of black people as a whole, “white supremacy” seems to be a good descriptor for you. If it isn’t, we need another word to describe people willing to hurt a group by race in order to advance their own interests. > > I’m not too concerned about ultimate motivations. > > (Now: cue the terrible analogy gotcha questions!) I support Latino immigration and naturalization because such voters tend to strongly support the same political party I do. If they were overwhelmingly Republican, I would be much less enthusiastic about their immigration and especially their naturalization. How does that fit into your framework? Getting back to the topic of the thread, I’m glad courts are striking down these 21st-century Jim Crow laws. But now this is an important inflection point. Democrats have to stop being reflexively against any sort of voter ID. It looks as craven and partisan on our side as those overturned laws on the GOP side did. And that’s because the anti-ID position _is_ craven and partisan, with no real justification. We certainly can’t tolerate a situation where hunting licenses are accepted but student IDs are not. But what we _should_ support is a national photo ID/voting card for every citizen, with a law that includes funding for armies of social workers to fan out into poor communities to help ensure that everyone gets one. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9832 "2016-08-03T21:00:09Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Again, white majority does not equal white supremacy. > > Some of you seem to refuse to believe that America has a culture – a white majority culture that most minorities and immigrants assimilate into (if they want to be “American”, and want to be successful). American culture is not white culture - American culture is a mix of many, with strong European, African, and Hispanic influences, among others. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9833 "2016-08-03T21:02:12Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I found this very interesting, in [an NPR story](http://www.npr.org/2016/08/02/488412824/voter-id-laws-face-uncertain-future-after-court-decisions) about the laws which have been struck down: > > I have been arguing for years that vote-by-mail is terrible. It’s become very prevalent in the Pacific Northwest, and misguided progressives periodically advocate for expanding it. So glad to see some evidence for why that’s such a bad idea. You know that you did not actually present any evidence? You quoted someone who has an opinion that mail-in-balloting is bad. But you don’t provide anything that actually shows it is bad, nor do you say why you think it’s bad. My friend Jack thinks Disneyland is an evil place. You can’t argue against evidence like that! ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9834 "2016-08-03T21:02:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’ll grant that there is an American culture, that immigrants not only assimilate into, but also add to and enrich. It is NOT a “white majority culture.” (If it is, we are doing something so very, very wrong.) > > Those who wish for a “white majority culture” are the white supremacists. When Obama took office, white Christians were the majority of people in this country. Now they are not, for the first time in American history. That is a major change, but it is also a very recent one. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9835 "2016-08-03T21:04:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > . . . Michael Jackson is also dead. . . . You can tell by looking closely at the clues in the lyrics to some of his songs, and in the background to the cover-art for his albums. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9836 "2016-08-03T21:04:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > You know that you did not actually present any evidence? You quoted someone who has an opinion that mail-in-balloting is bad. But you don’t provide anything that actually shows it is bad, nor do you say why you think it’s bad. > > My friend Jack thinks Disneyland is an evil place. You can’t argue against evidence like that! We can’t trust NPR to have vetted this expert whom they invited to testify on their show? If you were a juror and an expert witness testified at the trial, would you demand to see all of their data? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9837 "2016-08-03T21:09:54Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > When Obama took office, white Christians were the majority of people in this country. Now they are not, for the first time in American history. That is a major change, but it is also a very recent one. This is a good thing. Though it has more to do with young people not identifiying as christian, more than it is a change in racial makeup (though that is changing too). There is a difference between being a majority, and having your majority be “The Culture.” I say this as a nearly middle aged white guy, raised in a conservative, christian household. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9838 "2016-08-03T21:48:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > We can’t trust NPR to have vetted this expert whom they invited to testify on their show? If you were a juror and an expert witness testified at the trial, would you demand to see all of their data? Um… yeah. Do you think expert witnesses just show up, give their opinion, and take off without having to support that opinion? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9839 "2016-08-03T22:07:13Z")
I’ve never been a juror (I always get eliminated before the trial), but I can’t imagine that they have the jurors do peer review on their research in real time. More broadly, you can’t operate in the modern world by verifying every expert’s claim, or even almost any of them. You have to decide which experts you can trust and go from there. It’s either that or solipsism. I mean, how do you even know any of what you read about in the news? Do you travel around and verify all of it? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9840 "2016-08-03T22:28:31Z")
The point is that you said this was evidence. It is not. It is the opinion of one guy. He might have evidence to support that opinion and if he were testifying at trial he would have to show that evidence. Someone agrees with you. That’s great. He’s a law and political science professor. Even better. I suspect evidence that supports your opinion might exist, but you haven’t shown that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=491) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=493)