# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 498
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9941 "2016-08-04T21:47:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It’s not the first time I’ve seen Bricker use that tactic. In the course of an argument, he once said these cases: > > 1. Start (ideally) with a presumption of innocence where the state must prove guilt, and > 2. Start (clearly) with a presumption of guilt where the individual must prove innocence > > …were “similar”. It was in a thread with a related premise (“Why prevent felons from voting?”) and his argument was that the state should be free to purge felons from the voter rolls and if a few noncriminals with names similar to felons lost their votes in the process, too bad - the onus would be on them to remedy the situation, by whatever means the state decided. > > This wasn’t the first time his indifference to ethics was on display. Won’t be the last, I’m sure. Yuck. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9942 "2016-08-04T21:47:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think it’s reasonable to call legislators who tried to justify rolling back certain voting days because those were the days that more black people voted terrible people? Well, if one wishes to be generous, call them _weak_ people who are trying to take an ethically questionable shortcut (block opposing voters) rather than face the harder task of making their platform more appealing to the electorate overall. I expect it’s inevitable when elected officials are allowed to control how elections are managed. If employees were free to write their own evaluations and set their own job requirements and salaries, we’d see comparable abuses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9943 "2016-08-04T21:49:40Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if one wishes to be generous, call them _weak_ people who are trying to take an ethically questionable shortcut (block opposing voters) rather than face the harder task of making their platform more appealing to the electorate overall. > > I expect it’s inevitable when elected officials are allowed to control how elections are managed. If employees were free to write their own evaluations and set their own job requirements and salaries, we’d see comparable abuses. Whatever the motive, changing rules in a way that disproportionately harms black voters is wrong, and justly violates the VRA. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9944 "2016-08-04T21:55:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whatever the motive, deliberately trying to make it harder for black people to vote is wrong. Making it harder for anyone to vote is wrong. It is even moreso, however, when the recipient of the disenfranchisement is of a historically oppressed group. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9945 "2016-08-04T21:56:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whatever the motive, deliberately trying to make it harder for black people to vote is wrong. Sure, though I’d suggest race doesn’t really matter (though it’s an easier sell if the society itself has a lot of racism in it, and American society certainly does). If through some statistical quirk, it was noted that left-handed people tended (i.e. 60% of the time) to vote for Party A for whatever reason, we’d look askance at Party B for trying to come up with strategies to discourage left-handed people from voting. The identities of Parties A and B (as well as whatever distinct characteristic this bloc of voters has in common) shouldn’t matter to an ethical person - it’s clearly an immoral and undemocratic approach. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9946 "2016-08-04T22:22:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s merely a disagreement over which policy produces a better result in the electorate. It’s telling that you didn’t write “better turnout” or “better fairness” but rather “better result.” I suppose the “better result” is the election of whomever Karl Rove and Sean Hannity tell you to vote for. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9947 "2016-08-04T23:13:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “We recognize that elections have consequences, but winning an election does not empower anyone in any party to engage in purposeful racial discrimination,” ruled Judge Diana Gribbon Motz. “When a legislature dominated by one party has dismantled barriers to African-American access to the franchise, even if done to gain votes, ‘politics as usual’ does not allow a legislature dominated by the other party to re-erect those barriers.” > > Have you advised this poor deluded woman that she is obviously wrong? You can reach her at the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. She awaits your instruction. I prefer to let the appellate system work it’s process unimpeded by my direct intervention. But I do not agree with her pronouncement. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9948 "2016-08-04T23:14:38Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > :eek: Do you really see the following scenarios as ethically equivalent? > > (1) “Mr. Speaker, our research shows that making it easier to vote will expand the franchise overall, but will increase vote totals for our party’s candidates more than for their opponents.” > > “Great! Get a bill written up, and let’s get it through committee and onto the floor so we can pass it in time for the next election.” > > (2) “Mr. Speaker, our research shows that making it harder to vote will decrease voter turnout overall, but will decrease vote totals for the other party’s candidates more than for ours.” > > “Great! Get a bill written up, and let’s get it through committee and onto the floor so we can pass it in time for the next election.” Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9949 "2016-08-04T23:16:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Fourth Circuit strikes down North Carolina voting restrictions.](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/07/29/fourth_circuit_strikes_down_north_carolina_voting_restrictions.html) The phrases in quotation marks – they are quoting the legislature? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9950 "2016-08-04T23:17:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think it’s reasonable to call legislators who tried to justify rolling back certain voting days because those were the days that more black people voted terrible people? That never happened. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9951 "2016-08-04T23:22:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. That’s seriously twisted, antidemocratic morality, but I guess at least you don’t try to deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9952 "2016-08-04T23:30:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The phrases in quotation marks – they are quoting the legislature? In some cases the legislature, in other cases the court. Which you could probably have found out for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9953 "2016-08-04T23:35:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The data requests you mention all happened subsequent to that date: > … > > All of those bills happened before the data call requests you find so odious > > … > > You, and the appeals court, recite only the facts which support your preferred conclusion. Heh. Upon reading the actual transcript, I find that the above is a lie: the court did mention the timeline. LOOK AT ME. I AM THE LAWYER NOW! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9954 "2016-08-04T23:40:56Z")
Our hopes for a speedy recovery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9955 "2016-08-04T23:41:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That never happened. According to the appeals court, it did. Slate quotes the legislature’s own arguments, though I’m still looking for a source for that. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9956 "2016-08-04T23:49:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > According to the appeals court, it did. Slate quotes the legislature’s own arguments, though I’m still looking for a source for that. Bricker is once again lying. I say “lying” rather than “wrong” because as a lawyer, Bricker could be expected to have read the court ruling, where the following is found: The district court found that, prior to enactment of SL 2013-381, legislators also requested data as to the racial breakdown of early voting usage. Id. at \*136-37. Early voting allows any registered voter to complete an absentee application and ballot at the same time, in person, in advance of Election Day. Id. at \*4-5. Early voting thus increases opportunities to vote for those who have difficulty getting to their polling place on Election Day. The racial data provided to the legislators revealed that African Americans disproportionately used early voting in both 2008 and 2012. Id. at \*136-38; see also id. at \*48 n.74 (trial evidence showing that 60.36% and 64.01% of African Americans voted early in 2008 and 2012, respectively, compared to 44.47% and 49.39% of whites). In particular, African Americans disproportionately used the first seven days of early voting. Id. After receipt of this racial data, the General Assembly amended the bill to eliminate the first week of early voting, shortening the total early voting period from seventeen to ten days. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9957 "2016-08-04T23:53:21Z")
I understand that **Bricker** might disagree with the legal opinion of the appeals court, but as far as I can tell he also _thinks the appeals court is lying_ – the appeals court said explicitly that the legislature defended the provisions because it was concerned that black voters had too much access to the franchise. Am I correct, **Bricker** , that you think the appeals court is being dishonest in stating this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9958 "2016-08-04T23:55:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Bricker is once again lying. I say “lying” rather than “wrong” because as a lawyer, Bricker could be expected to have read the court ruling, where the following is found: > > The district court found that, prior to enactment of SL > 2013-381, legislators also requested data as to the racial > breakdown of early voting usage. Id. at \*136-37. Early voting > allows any registered voter to complete an absentee application > and ballot at the same time, in person, in advance of Election > Day. Id. at \*4-5. Early voting thus increases opportunities to > vote for those who have difficulty getting to their polling > place on Election Day. > The racial data provided to the legislators revealed that > African Americans disproportionately used early voting in both > 2008 and 2012. Id. at \*136-38; see also id. at \*48 n.74 (trial > evidence showing that 60.36% and 64.01% of African Americans > voted early in 2008 and 2012, respectively, compared to 44.47% > and 49.39% of whites). In particular, African Americans > disproportionately used the first seven days of early voting. > Id. After receipt of this racial data, the General Assembly > amended the bill to eliminate the first week of early voting, > shortening the total early voting period from seventeen to ten > days. **Bricker** , did you read this part of the court ruling? It disputes your A-D timeline – it says that “after receipt of this data” – after the legislature got the racial breakdown of the first week of early voting – they “amended the bill to eliminate the first week of early voting”. Are you saying that the appeals court is lying, or was your timeline mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9959 "2016-08-05T00:37:00Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Bricker is once again lying. I say “lying” rather than “wrong” because as a lawyer, Bricker could be expected to have read the court ruling, where the following is found: > > The district court found that, prior to enactment of SL > 2013-381, legislators also requested data as to the racial > breakdown of early voting usage. Id. at \*136-37. Early voting > allows any registered voter to complete an absentee application > and ballot at the same time, in person, in advance of Election > Day. Id. at \*4-5. Early voting thus increases opportunities to > vote for those who have difficulty getting to their polling > place on Election Day. > The racial data provided to the legislators revealed that > African Americans disproportionately used early voting in both > 2008 and 2012. Id. at \*136-38; see also id. at \*48 n.74 (trial > evidence showing that 60.36% and 64.01% of African Americans > voted early in 2008 and 2012, respectively, compared to 44.47% > and 49.39% of whites). In particular, African Americans > disproportionately used the first seven days of early voting. > Id. After receipt of this racial data, the General Assembly > amended the bill to eliminate the first week of early voting, > shortening the total early voting period from seventeen to ten > days. Ok. Now point out what I said that is different than what you quoted, showing that I lied. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/9960 "2016-08-05T00:55:42Z")
**Bricker** , please explain the following chain of quotes: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think it’s reasonable to call legislators who tried to justify rolling back certain voting days because those were the days that more black people voted terrible people? > [@Bricker](#): > > That never happened. [QUOTE=Court Record] As “evidence of justifications” for the changes to early voting, the State offered purported inconsistencies in voting hours across counties, including the fact that only some counties had decided to offer Sunday voting. Id. The State then elaborated on its justification, explaining that “**[c]ounties with Sunday voting in 2014 were disproportionately black**” and “disproportionately Democratic.” J.A. 22348-49. In response, SL 2013-381 did away with one of the two days of Sunday voting. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=497) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=499)