# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/981 "2012-07-06T18:47:43Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > The point has been repeatedly made that in matters of voting, it shouldn’t be up to the people. I thought we learned this during the Jim Crow era. I’m sure the poll taxes and literary tests had wide support in some of the southern states. Did that make it legit? Who should it be up to, then? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/982 "2012-07-06T18:50:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I see. So leaving aside your startling revelations, we may assume that you simply made up something and tossed it out there? That you haven’t the slightest idea whether what you said is relevant, or not? No. My point was that YOU offered up the inference that “More than 758,000 registered voters in Pennsylvania do not have photo identification cards from the state Transportation Department, putting their voting rights at risk in the November election, according to data released Tuesday by state election officials.” (from the link you offered) But since a photo ID from the state transportation department is not the only acceptable ID, this inference fails. The question is how many people don’t have, and cannot get, any acceptable form of ID. I don’t know the answer to my question – I’m pointing out that your inference rests on being able to supply it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/983 "2012-07-06T18:56:18Z")
> [@](#): > > …Who should it be up to, then? When it comes to neatly evading a point and changing the subject, ain’t nobody like our **Bricker**! Its like watching a world class _matador_ performing a perfect _veronica_! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/984 "2012-07-06T18:56:45Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > (Though I suppose it matters not, a US passport would not be an acceptable form of ID under the proposed Minnesota voter suppression amendment.) Cite? So [far as I can see](https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H1597.0.html&session=ls87), that’s not the case: > [@](#): > > Shall the Minnesota Constitution be amended to require that all voters present an approved form of photographic identification prior to voting; all voters be subject to identical eligibility verification standards regardless of the time of their registration; and the state provide at no charge an approved photographic identification to eligible voters? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/985 "2012-07-06T18:58:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > When it comes to neatly evading a point and changing the subject, ain’t nobody like our **Bricker**! Its like watching a world class _matador_ performing a perfect _veronica_! No. Not at all. You posted this: > [@elucidator](#): > > And this just in… > > [Inquirer.com archives](http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-05/news/32537732_1_voter-id-new-voter-id-cards) > > **Voter ID law may affect more Pennsylvanians than previously estimated** > Well, my voter confidence is soaring now! > > Say, Pennsylvania? Isn’t that the place where… > > A proud day for Republicans everywhere! Take a bow, Counselor! No, really, you deserve it! I responded with my question: > [@Bricker](#): > > How many of those 758,000 voters without a PennDOT photo ID also lack other acceptable photo IDs? Because your link said: “More than 758,000 registered voters in Pennsylvania do not have photo identification cards from the state Transportation Department, putting their voting rights at risk in the November election, according to data released Tuesday by state election officials.” That’s directly and precisely on point. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/986 "2012-07-06T19:01:08Z")
Pssst! Talking about your response to\*\* Sinaptic\*\*. Why I quoted it, to point to that. ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/987 "2012-07-06T19:05:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, right. Iowans sneaking over the border, plumb forgot. I also keep forgetting that I’m surrounded by people who voted for Jesse Ventura for Governor. Iowans; they hate us for our freedoms. I have it on some uzithority that we are in danger of Canadians who can’t vote in their home country for lack of a photo ID sneaking in to cast a confidence sapping illegal ballot too. I suspect they’ll only write in “beaver people” so, whatev. Bless their little Jesse loving hearts, they did vote after all. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/988 "2012-07-06T19:24:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who should it be up to, then? Perhaps an election commission with a set of clearly defined guidelines. However, back to the point, the populace shouldn’t be able to vote to restrict voting. Do you not concur? Literacy tests and the like were fine until legislation was passed to make them illegal (Voting Rights Act). Here you are boldly walking the same path saying, “But it’s different this time. Anyone can vote if they just do x.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/989 "2012-07-06T19:51:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Pssst! Talking about your response to\*\* Sinaptic\*\*. Why I quoted it, to point to that. Ooops. :smack: OK – how is my response to HIM not directly on point to what he said? > [@Sinaptics](#): > > The point has been repeatedly made that in matters of voting, it shouldn’t be up to the people. > [@Bricker](#): > > Who should it be up to, then? He asserts that the people cannot legitimately change matters of voting. I ask who can. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/990 "2012-07-06T19:55:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. My point was that YOU offered up the inference that “More than 758,000 registered voters in Pennsylvania do not have photo identification cards from the state Transportation Department, putting their voting rights at risk in the November election, according to data released Tuesday by state election officials.” (from the link you offered) > > But since a photo ID from the state transportation department is not the only acceptable ID, this inference fails. The question is how many people don’t have, and cannot get, any acceptable form of ID. > > I don’t know the answer to my question – I’m pointing out that your inference rests on being able to supply it. Well, whats your best estimate? You can go ahead and spitball it, just roughly. Some forms of student id are accepted, according to the article, as are military id, and US passports. Out of those 758 thousand, wanna say half of them have these alternate forms? Be a very wild estimation, by my lights, but what the hell, half. Only leaving some…let see, carry the five, minus 2…about 380 thousand? But hey! Small price to pay for voter confidence, right? Did you by chance catch the punchline at the end? > [@](#): > > …According to frequently cited studies on voter fraud, there were a grand total of 13 “credible cases of in-person voter impersonation” – one of the types of fraud most frequently targeted by voter ID champions – recorded from 2000 to 2010. As Comedy Central’s Indecision blog points out, exploding toilets and deaths by television are far more common… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/991 "2012-07-06T19:59:06Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Perhaps an election commission with a set of clearly defined guidelines. However, back to the point, the populace shouldn’t be able to vote to restrict voting. Do you not concur? No. The power rests completely with the populace. Ultimately, they can exercise it how they choose. The populace has ratified a constitution and declared it to be the supreme law of the land. They have required a super-majority vote to change it, and created a separate branch of government to interpret it, and the laws made in furtherance of the powers it grants. So any laws made must conform to the constitution’s limits. The populace can absolutely vote to restrict voting. Was our democracy somehow non-existant before women had the vote? Is it not legitimate now because my ten year old son cannot vote? The populace has always had the power and the right to craft voting laws. They can absolutely vote to restrict voting, as long as their actions are consistent with Constitutional guarantees. As the Voter ID laws are. I wouldn’t mind an election commission – but of course the same authority would have to approve it as approves the changes in laws now: the people, either directly or through their elected representatives. If you think a commission of some kind is the way to go, have at it – convince your fellow citizens. And if enough of them agree, that’s what we’ll have. But you can’t get it by demanding it, as a minority. That’s not ow representative democracy works, see? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/992 "2012-07-06T20:00:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ooops. :smack: > > OK – how is my response to HIM not directly on point to what he said? > > He asserts that the people cannot legitimately change matters of voting. I ask who can. The majority rules, true, but there must be limits even upon that awesome power. Democracy isn’t built upon absolutes, however much you may crave them, but a mutual willingness to muddle through, to choose the most just alternative when perfect justice is impossible. We often fall short, true. But using the power of the legislature to create a partisan advantage for isn’t “falling short”, its aiming badly. Very badly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/993 "2012-07-06T20:07:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, whats your best estimate? You can go ahead and spitball it, just roughly. Some forms of student id are accepted, according to the article, as are military id, and US passports. Out of those 758 thousand, wanna say half of them have these alternate forms? Be a very wild estimation, by my lights, but what the hell, half. Only leaving some…let see, carry the five, minus 2…about 380 thousand? > > But hey! Small price to pay for voter confidence, right? > > Did you by chance catch the punchline at the end? That leaves the second part of my question: for those that don’t have any such ID, today is July 6th. The election is in November. How many of them can’t get ID by then? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/994 "2012-07-06T20:08:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The majority rules, true, but there must be limits even upon that awesome power. Democracy isn’t built upon absolutes, however much you may crave them, but a mutual willingness to muddle through, to choose the most just alternative when perfect justice is impossible. We often fall short, true. But using the power of the legislature to create a partisan advantage for isn’t “falling short”, its aiming badly. Very badly. What system do you propose in place of (super) majority rules? How are these limits placed upon that power? By what person or group? What’s the plan? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/995 "2012-07-06T20:12:56Z")
The voter ID laws you champion are consistent with the letter of the Constitution, but not the spirit and intent. If they had crafted these laws without the circumstances that empower one party over another, which could have been easily done, then they would have been in perfect compliance, both to letter and spirit. They did not, as you have already recognized. There is no longer any doubt of that, what with all the public recognition of that fact. I can readily understand why you only want to talk about the legitimacy and Constitutionality of voter ID laws, it diverts attention from the real core of the problem, which is the partisan nature of these efforts. That big ol’ ugly elephant squats right in the middle of the room, bursting forth enormous peanut-scented farts. You can ignore him so long as you like, but he’s still there. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/996 "2012-07-06T20:19:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That leaves the second part of my question: for those that don’t have any such ID, today is July 6th. The election is in November. How many of them can’t get ID by then? The fact that they can get them isn’t the problem. The problem is that it’s an extra step for something a lot of people barely want to do in the first place. It doesn’t matter that they can do it, just that they won’t, and that there’s no way the Republicans proposing this didn’t think about that before coming up with this. This seems to be a running theme with you. When you support something, you are supporting all effects of said something. When one affect–preventing fraud–accomplishes nothing, but another–discouraging voter turn out–accomplishes something, it is rational to assume the point is the second and not the first. Specifically once both ideas have been articulated. Again, your argument doesn’t matter. You might as well be arguing that a mandatory abortion law that allowed for exceptions if you filed them was equivalent to the current state of people having a choice. They’d still be able to not have an abortion, so it’s the same thing, right? No, it isn’t, and any argument based on that fact is disingenuous. You would object to that law even more than we object to this one. ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/997 "2012-07-06T20:25:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Cite? > > So [far as I can see](https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H1597.0.html&session=ls87), that’s not the case: The wording is vague; “valid photographic identification as prescribed by law” (from your citation). If the amendment should pass then law will have to be enacted defining acceptable ID. The amendment was proposed by the Honorable Representative Mary Kiffmeyer. Or Mare, or Marenheimer (she loves that, that and having her hair pulled, perhaps I over-share). Mare has authored a raft of voter bills, all, I believe, vetoed or overturned by the courts. As Secretary of State she tried to disallow use of off reservation Tribal ID cards for same day registration, this was challenged and finally settled in favor of the plaintiffs. In 2005 (I think) she supported a decision invalidating student proof of residence, a Hennepin County judge issued a restraining order, but, damage done and all that (win!). Ms Kiffmeyer frequently uses the phrase “state issued ID.” Ms Kiffmeyer has advocated for government ID showing a photo and proof of residency (no address on a passport). Ms Kifmeyer is the state chairwoman of ALEC. Ms Kiffmeyer is the Administrative Director of Minnesota Majority, which is a scary mess all in itself. I’m going to stop here (is your hair on fire? mine is) and let you consider that this is the woman who will be the trusted elected official, or tip of the spear as we say, when “valid photographic identification as prescribed by law” will be decided. One in a while, when she’s in her cups she will slur “oh fuck it, let’s just let the riff raff vote and I’ll move to Sweden or Japan where they have racial purity.” So, maybe–a boy can dream–my passport will stand the test of The Kiffenmeyer and her ilk. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/998 "2012-07-06T20:33:07Z")
I would remind that here in the Pit, unproven insinuations and salacious innuendos must meet a stern and severe rule: pics, or it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/999 "2012-07-06T20:47:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Some forms of student id are accepted Only state universities that have an expiration date on the ID. Only one university meets that criteria. Can’t remember which. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1000 "2012-07-06T20:48:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. The power rests completely with the populace. Ultimately, they can exercise it how they choose. > > The populace has ratified a constitution and declared it to be the supreme law of the land. They have required a super-majority vote to change it, and created a separate branch of government to interpret it, and the laws made in furtherance of the powers it grants. > > So any laws made must conform to the constitution’s limits. The populace can absolutely vote to restrict voting. Was our democracy somehow non-existant before women had the vote? Is it not legitimate now because my ten year old son cannot vote? > > The populace has always had the power and the right to craft voting laws. They can absolutely vote to restrict voting, as long as their actions are consistent with Constitutional guarantees. > > As the Voter ID laws are. > > I wouldn’t mind an election commission – but of course the same authority would have to approve it as approves the changes in laws now: the people, either directly or through their elected representatives. If you think a commission of some kind is the way to go, have at it – convince your fellow citizens. And if enough of them agree, that’s what we’ll have. > > But you can’t get it by demanding it, as a minority. That’s not ow representative democracy works, see? Again, the poll taxes and literary test were also completely legal. Is that the standard you’d like to keep? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=51)