# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 512
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10221 "2016-08-30T23:24:02Z")
If felons are ineligible to vote, then their votes steal elections. I understand a lot of people think felons should be allowed to vote. That’s fine. That’s why we have elections, to decide such things. Democrats should campaign on making it legal for felons to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10222 "2016-08-31T00:03:44Z")
Republicans should campaign on just being felons. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10223 "2016-08-31T00:05:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Early voting, longer voting hours, voting on Sunday; you know, things that would increase voter turnout. All things Republicans want to suppress. So getting rid of midterms is off the table? For now, anyway I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10224 "2016-08-31T00:32:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Those do nothing to prevent elections from being stolen by say, felons voting… Where do you live that there are so many felons that their votes could swing an election? (Besides, is there any evidence that the ‘felons’ vote wouldn’t be split between parties, just like other votes?) If what you’re saying is that 'felons are mostly black or brown\*, and ‘those people’ shouldn’t be allowed to vote, just come out and say it. We would not be startled to hear that from you. - Not true. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10225 "2016-08-31T00:42:53Z")
Okay, so now we’re assuming that felons split about 50-50. All righty then. And the felon vote has been the difference in Al Franken’s first election and the 2004 Washington gubernatorial election. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10226 "2016-08-31T00:52:41Z")
Your points will never be considered clever if everyone already knows you’re stupid, adaher. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10227 "2016-08-31T00:53:55Z")
You guys are evading the actual issue with felon voting. Should it be legal or not? Where it is illegal, should the law be enforced or not? If certain types of voters are legally ineligible, then if an election’s margin is decided by those voters, is it not fair to say that the election has been stolen? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10228 "2016-08-31T01:01:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You guys are evading the actual issue with felon voting. Should it be legal or not? Sure. I even started a thread asking why it should be illegal, didn’t get any good answers. > [@](#): > > Where it is illegal, should the law be enforced or not? Sure. Can it be done without disenfranchising an equal or larger number of nonfelons, though? > [@](#): > > If certain types of voters are legally ineligible, then if an election’s margin is decided by those voters, is it not fair to say that the election has been stolen? It is not fair to say that. “Stolen” implies a concentrated effort to secure the result for a particular candidate regardless of what the electorate wants. Individual felons voting independently does not do this in and of itself. If you want to claim all the felons were working in concert to vote a particular way, maybe, but I’d like to see a cite. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10229 "2016-08-31T01:10:34Z")
Non-enforcement is a concerted effort to steal an election. The government has databases. It takes less than a minute to check if a registrant is a felon. Or to simply remove someone from the rolls within days of their conviction. As for why it should be illegal for felons to vote, one valid reason is that felons have already proven they are not good citizens. We don’t let them have guns, why would we let them elect the guys who control the guys with guns? I’m agnostic on the question of whether it’s good policy, but one thing I do believe firmly is that it’s far more important for felons to have the right to get jobs and housing. Democrats seem awfully interested in getting them to the polls, a lot less interested in letting them get occupational licenses or prevent companies from discriminating against felons when there isn’t a compelling interest at stake(like safety). While many Democrats, like President Obama, have the right views on these issues, most Democrats consider getting them to vote to be urgent, getting them their lives back a much lower priority. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10230 "2016-08-31T01:48:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You guys are evading the actual issue with felon voting. Should it be legal or not? . . . There are places where ex-convicts, released from prison and having served their time, are eligible to have their right to vote restored. In some of those places, there is a very long waiting list, and many of them continue to be denied the restoration of their rights, even though the law recommends it. (The law is carefully written to remove their right to have their rights restored. They can’t sue. But there are places that have made it all but impossible for the process to go forward. A handful of commissioners may be in place to handle many thousands of appeals, etc.) And, yes, definitely, if it is illegal, then that law should be enforced. If you can identify a place where significant numbers of felons vote inappropriately, then additional enforcement needs to be engaged. Same for places where significant numbers of non-citizens register and vote. We hear accusations of this happening on a large scale, but is there any actual evidence? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10231 "2016-08-31T01:49:25Z")
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/) > [@](#): > > How many non-citizens participate in U.S. elections? More than 14 percent of non-citizens in both the 2008 and 2010 samples indicated that they were registered to vote. Furthermore, some of these non-citizens voted. Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10232 "2016-08-31T01:55:49Z")
You can \*try \*to pretend you weren’t claiming most felons are Democrats. But you were. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10233 "2016-08-31T01:56:53Z")
Oh, I’m claiming most felons are Democrats. Don’t misunderstand me on that count. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10234 "2016-08-31T02:11:48Z")
Oh, we understand you fine. We also know as well as you that you have nothing but your usual partisan bluster to support that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10235 "2016-08-31T02:19:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Non-enforcement is a concerted effort to steal an election. The government has databases. It takes less than a minute to check if a registrant is a felon. Or to simply remove someone from the rolls within days of their conviction. But… but… government database _bad_. You said so, yourself… > [@](#): > > As for why it should be illegal for felons to vote, one valid reason is that felons have already proven they are not good citizens. We don’t let them have guns, why would we let them elect the guys who control the guys with guns? _What?!_ You want to deprive citizens of their right to own guns? What are you, some kind of Second-Amendment-Hating Liberal Pansy _Communist?!_ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10236 "2016-08-31T02:39:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/) Of course the question on the article was if the number of those votes could make the democrats take congress in 2014. [Igor] Well, they were wrong then, weren’t they?[/Igor] There **was** an extraordinary level of scrutiny made to the votes in the Sen. Al Franken close election. The makers of the article argue with no evidence and less convincing arguments that the numbers in that study could mean that illegals helped elect Franken. That is really unbelievable as I do remember how many people that research the issue found virtually noting. The Franken case is not good evidence for what they claimed, making one doubt the conclusions of that study. And sure enough, since it was done in 2014 I expected that not only the results of the election then made a mockery of their finds, but also by now there were a lot of studies and criticism made that shows how unreliable that research was. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/27/methodological-challenges-affect-study-of-non-citizens-voting/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/27/methodological-challenges-affect-study-of-non-citizens-voting/) > [@](#): > > A number of academics and commentators have already expressed skepticism about the paper’s assumptions and conclusions, though. In a series of tweets, New York Times columnist Nate Cohn focused his criticism on Richman et al’s use of Cooperative Congressional Election Study data to make inferences about the non-citizen voting population. That critique has some merit, too. The 2008 and 2010 CCES surveyed large opt-in Internet samples constructed by the polling firm YouGov to be nationally representative of the adult citizen population. Consequently, the assumption that non-citizens, who volunteered to take online surveys administered in English about American politics, would somehow be representative of the entire non-citizen population seems tenuous at best. > [@](#): > > To be sure, my quick analysis does not at all disprove Richman et al’s conclusion that a large enough number of non-citizens are voting in elections to tip the balance for Democrats in very close races. It does, however, suggest that the CCES is probably not an appropriate data source for testing such claims. And of course since 2014 more research has pointed that what the Republicans have used to justify their voter suppression crusades are based on half baked research and even complete lies. Before, and after 2014. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/07/09/7-papers-4-government-inquiries-2-news-investigations-and-1-court-ruling-proving-voter-fraud-is-mostly-a-myth/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/07/09/7-papers-4-government-inquiries-2-news-investigations-and-1-court-ruling-proving-voter-fraud-is-mostly-a-myth/) > **[Donald Trump's baseless claims about 'rigged' elections](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/aug/15/donald-trump/donald-trumps-baseless-claims-about-election-being/)** > > Donald Trump preemptively challenged the results of the November presidential election, claiming in media appearances an > [@](#): > > Our ruling > > Trump has repeatedly claimed that the U.S. election system is rigged. > > He has cited examples of voter fraud, which is extremely rare, often unintentional and not on a scale large enough to affect a national election. > > While there are isolated examples of bought local elections, experts say it cannot be replicated on a national scale. While it is possible to tamper with electronic voting machines, there is no evidence deliberate malfeasance has altered any election. > > We rate Trump’s claim Pants on Fire. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10237 "2016-08-31T02:53:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Oh, I’m claiming most felons are Democrats. Don’t misunderstand me on that count. I forgot that we are in the pit! Well, besides noticing that you lied to all and you are once again carrying water for Trump and the Republicans, you are only demonstrating [Forrest Gump]again!..[/FG] how inept you are in detecting that they have been pulling your leg. (Again…) And as usual it is your leg that is related to a disdain and prejudice against minorities and immigrants. > **[Are the 'overwhelming majority of violent criminals' Democrats? Ted Cruz said so](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/dec/01/ted-cruz/are-overwhelming-majority-violent-criminals-democr/)** > > During an interview with conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt, Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz said most viole > [@](#): > > Our ruling > > Cruz said, “Here’s the simple and undeniable fact: The overwhelming majority of violent criminals are Democrats.” > > Research cited by the Cruz campaign supports the claim that, in at least three states, felons released from prison go on to register as Democrats at a disproportionately high rate following their release. > > However, there are important caveats. The study in question looked at both violent and nonviolent felons without separating out those two groups. It’s not clear whether the patterns holds in the other 47 states. Also, the study didn’t look at active “criminals” **but rather those who had already served their time.** Finally, it’s hard to draw a line between cause and effect, particularly given the disproportionately high population of African-Americans – a traditionally Democratic group – in the criminal justice system. > > We rate his statement Mostly False. I should add that there is an element of logic here: since Republicans have made a sport of disenfranchising people that already paid their debt to society, it would not be surprising to me that a lot of former felons that were Republicans would turn into Democrats at the sight of the Republicans stealing their votes now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10238 "2016-08-31T06:25:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > …And the felon vote has been the difference in Al Franken’s first election… The kerfluffle about Franken and the “felon vote” is deep dish crapola. I’m assuming that you haven’t really dug into that story and just heard a snippet passed around. What I gathered from local news sources was confusion resulting from misunderstanding terms of probation. That is, felons released from prison some time past but who still had some probationary time on their sentence were advised that they need not _report_ any longer, effectively “ending” their probation. It was not made clear to them that their civil rights were _not_ restored, as they would be (in MN) at the end of their probation. They thought their probation had been legally shortened, their sentence served, and they were restored. They were mistaken. The election was incredibly close, the recount was public, transparent, and agonizingly slow. Once it became apparent that the Republicans would lose by a butterfly’s whisker, they got frantic, searching for something other than what was laid out before them. This “felon vote” booshwa was a dull flash in the pan. Franken won by the merest margin, but fair and square. You should check your source on that driblet of diarrhea, and never listen to them again. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10239 "2016-08-31T10:10:00Z")
North Carolina Republicans [aren’t following court orders](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/31/us/politics/election-rules-north-carolina.html) to cut the shit. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10240 "2016-08-31T11:20:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You guys are evading the actual issue with felon voting. Should it be legal or not? Where it is illegal, should the law be enforced or not? > > If certain types of voters are legally ineligible, then if an election’s margin is decided by those voters, is it not fair to say that the election has been stolen? This is very similar, in world-view, claim, and in tone, to many Bricker posts. Do others agree that this is reminscent of Bricker’s perspective? I think I’ll call **adaher** the **Bricker Apprentice**. Let’s turn this thread into an exploration of psychological connections between **adaher** and **Bricker**. @ **Bricker** , again we need input from _you_. I doubt you’d call **adaher** your understudy, but is he an apprentice? a disciple? Or is his a false-flag operation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=511) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=513)