# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 515
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10281 "2016-09-10T14:27:36Z")
[The DC Court of Appeal](http://electionlawblog.org/wp-content/uploads/LWV-v.-Newby-DC-Cir.-Order-Sept.-9.pdf)s shoves Kansas SecState Kris Kobach’s attempt to fix a nonexistent problem, albeit with some unfortunately disproportionate side effects, back down his democracy-hating throat. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10282 "2016-09-11T04:09:54Z")
Non-existent problem? No, non-citizens voting actually is a thing. > **[Could non-citizens decide the November election?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/)** > > New research finds that non-citizens do vote, and this could be consequential in some races. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10283 "2016-09-11T07:18:53Z")
> [@](#): > > …In spite of substantial public controversy, _very little reliable data exist_s concerning the frequency with which non-citizen immigrants participate in United States elections… (From the abstract of cited article, emphasis added in wonder and astonishment) But lo! > [@](#): > > …Estimated Voter Turnout by Non-Citizens > 2008 2010 > Self reported and/or verified 38 (11.3%) 13 (3.5%) > Self reported and verified 5 (1.5%) N.A. > Adjusted estimate 21 (6.4%) 8 (2.2%)… Gosh, sure looks like pretty precise derivations from limited data. _Very_ limited data. One has to wonder why and how non-citizen voters are so eager to speak such truths to…who, exactly? Who asked non-citizen voters whether or not they voted? What motivated such admissions? Were they bitterly ashamed, and only wanted to confess to some stranger with a clip board? Where did they get lists of non-citizens to ask? “Hi, there, are you a non-citizen? You are? Good, did you commit voter fraud in 2008? How about 2012? Yes and yes? Thank you, have a nice day…” And this, of local interest… > [@](#): > > …Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) won election in 2008 with a victory margin of 312 votes. Votes cast by just 0.65 percent of Minnesota non-citizens could account for this margin… Why yes, that is possible. So long as possible is defined as anything that is not impossible. Would anyone like to make a list of all the possible causes of an extremely minor difference in voting? And this: > [@](#): > > …(Obama won more than 80 percent of the votes of non-citizens in the 2008 CCES sample)… Did he, now? In 2008? And how is it that this data remained unremarked for so long? Its not like this data would not have been music to the ears of those eager to hear it? How is it that they didn’t? Would anyone here have expected such shattering news to be ignored by those starving for such manna from Hell? So, we should ignore that first quote, about the unreliability of data about non-citizen voting, and whole-heartedly embrace the derived lessons from said unreliable data? Pull the other one, it has bells, pull the middle one, I’ll give you a nickel. (Your correspondent from the conservative wing of the extreme left is a mathtard, and offers no pretense of expertise in statistical analysis. But if I still have a nickel after offering such generous terms as I have, I’ll put than nickel to bet that this gets ripped into little tiny pieces by people who do have that expertise.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10284 "2016-09-11T07:42:16Z")
Shit, how come I didn’t see that? October 24, 2014! Fuck me for stupid! Anyway, my prediction of sharp critique has already been met. > **[Today's voting freakout: noncitizens are coming to steal your election](https://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-steal-your-election-20141031-column.html)** > > With only a few days left before election day, pretexts for panic over the sanctity of the ballot box are dwindling down to a precious few. Choice bits: > [@](#): > > …In essence, they regard the authors’ assertion that the 2008 Senate victory of Al Franken (D-Minn.) and of President Obama in North Carolina, were close enough to have been swung by the votes of noncitizens in those states as a massive overreach… > [@](#): > > …It takes a bit of hubris to draw strong conclusions about the behavior of non-citizens from such small numbers… Shit, **addy**! Come on! Whatzamatta you? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10285 "2016-09-11T08:22:47Z")
Yet the study does prove that citizenship verification is necessary and that the honor system does not work. Is there ANY kind of voter verification that Democrats support? This really is something that Republicans should wrap around their necks every election season. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10286 "2016-09-11T09:20:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yet the study does prove that citizenship verification is necessary… Not if the solution disenfranchises more people than it catches in voter fraud. Come on, it is simple math. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10287 "2016-09-11T11:10:06Z")
It is actually federal law that newly registered voters have to be verified: > **[SSA Open Data | HAVV Transactions by State](https://www.ssa.gov/open/havv/)** > > Help America Vote Verification (HAVV) Transactions by State ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10288 "2016-09-11T11:22:16Z")
It looks like Kansas was going a lot further, requiring a birth certificate. But you do have to provide the last four digits of your SS# when you register, so that can and must be verified, although apparently many states are lax in doing their duty here and we have an administration that is quite uninterested in making sure it gets done. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10289 "2016-09-11T11:57:15Z")
Why do Republicans hate democracy, **adaher**? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10290 "2016-09-11T12:10:04Z")
If 1 billion Chinese vote in the next election, isn’t that democracy? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10291 "2016-09-11T14:15:29Z")
Here’s a hint: If you have to invent your evidence, you’ve already lost. Gawdammm … ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10292 "2016-09-11T15:26:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Non-existent problem? No, non-citizens voting actually is a thing. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/) I already explained why the makers of the study and the article got it wrong. So it is worse than that **ElvisL1ves** , **adaher** is not only inventing evidence but **also** reusing reheated baloney even after it was pointed out to him a few days back in post #10236 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10293 "2016-09-11T16:03:17Z")
Got me wondering. Seems to me that the words “Old Dominion University” are unexpectedly common when reading pseudo-scientific whale dreck. Did **Bricker** ever post this “study”? Or even read about it? Could it be that he did, and thought to himself “No, this is total horseshit, beneath my dignity and I’d never get away with it.”? Anyway, they make a real cute couple! ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10294 "2016-09-11T16:29:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yet the study does prove that citizenship verification is necessary and that the honor system does not work. > > Is there ANY kind of voter verification that Democrats support? This really is something that Republicans should wrap around their necks every election season. Your own cite states that: > [@](#): > > We also find that one of the favorite policies advocated by conservatives to prevent voter fraud appears strikingly ineffective. Nearly three quarters of the non-citizens who indicated they were asked to provide photo identification at the polls claimed to have subsequently voted. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10295 "2016-09-11T22:31:48Z")
Heck it doesn’t matter anymore since California automatically registers everyone who gets a drivers license to vote and allows illegal immigrants to get drivers licenses and doesn’t let the DMV check folks against against immigration databases. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10296 "2016-09-11T22:40:37Z")
> **[Did California Pass a Law Allowing Undocumented Immigrants to Vote in Federal...](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/california-motor-voter-act/)** > > While California did pass a law to increase voter turnout, the state has not made it legal for undocumented people to vote. Snopes. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10297 "2016-09-11T22:51:41Z")
It works if California officials are actually doing the checks. Is there any evidence that they are? As for the Monkey Cage study, the dispute is about exactly how many non-citizens are voting. The fact many are is undisputed, since states are really lax about checking voter registrations with their databases. But I do agree that Kobach and many other Republicans are going too far. All they’d have to do to win poiltically and get what they want is to enforce existing law. Check all new registrants against Kansas’ database, if you don’t match you don’t vote. That’s what the law allows and that’s what should be used. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10298 "2016-09-11T23:00:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It works if California officials are actually doing the checks. Is there any evidence that they are? > > As for the Monkey Cage study, the dispute is about exactly how many non-citizens are voting. The fact many are is undisputed, since states are really lax about checking voter registrations with their databases. :rolleyes: It was disputed already, the only thing you show to all here is that you do not know how to read cites. That would explain a lot though. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10299 "2016-09-11T23:20:33Z")
It disputed only the numbers. Is it 1% or 6%. Either way, it’s more than enough to justify existing laws designed to prevent that sort of thing. However, Democrats should feel free to run their 2016 campaign on getting rid of these required checks. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10300 "2016-09-12T00:13:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It disputed only the numbers. Is it 1% or 6%. Either way, it’s more than enough to justify existing laws designed to prevent that sort of thing. That is nice, you are only making yourself sound worse, I did not point only to that, many other reports showed how unimportant your hobby horse is. > [@adaher](#): > > However, Democrats should feel free to run their 2016 campaign on getting rid of these required checks. Again, you are only resorting to lies and reheated baloney. In 2014 (that your article is from and worried about) the Republicans gained a lot in congress and there was AFAIK no evidence to support what the article was worrying about. So much for the basis of your article and your stupid talking points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=514) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=516)