# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 523
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10441 "2017-04-25T22:04:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I trust you have made arrangements so that your SDMB writings will be available for your biographers? Except for that missing 17 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10442 "2017-04-25T23:27:58Z")
Kidnap, probe, erase memory. Standard procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10443 "2017-04-26T23:33:29Z")
[Now we finally know how bad voter fraud is in North Carolina](http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article146486019.html) The NC State Board of Elections released the results of an extensive, objective audit of the 2016 election. Here are some of the results… 4,769,640 votes cast 508 ineligible votes cast of those 508… 441 felons on probation (felons regain the right to vote in NC once probation ends) 41 non-citizens (all here legally) 24 cases of double voting 1 case of voter impersonation by mail 1 case of voter impersonation in person That last guy is important. He would have been stopped on election day had liberal activist judges not thrown out portions of NC’s voter ID law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10444 "2017-04-27T00:29:04Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > [Now we finally know how bad voter fraud is in North Carolina](http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article146486019.html) > > The NC State Board of Elections released the results of an extensive, objective audit of the 2016 election. Here are some of the results… > > 4,769,640 votes cast > 508 ineligible votes cast > > of those 508… > > 441 felons on probation (felons regain the right to vote in NC once probation ends) > 41 non-citizens (all here legally) > 24 cases of double voting > 1 case of voter impersonation by mail > 1 case of voter impersonation in person > > That last guy is important. He would have been stopped on election day had liberal activist judges not thrown out portions of NC’s voter ID law. I see the article doesn’t discuss prosecuting any of the 508 cases. Perhaps they could be prosecuted if the evidence included the use of a photo ID illegally. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10445 "2017-04-27T08:53:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I see the article doesn’t discuss prosecuting any of the 508 cases. > > Perhaps they could be prosecuted if the evidence included the use of a photo ID illegally. …which would only apply to one case. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10446 "2017-04-27T09:59:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > …which would only apply to one case. Why wouldn’t it apply to 507 cases? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10447 "2017-04-27T10:56:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I see the article doesn’t discuss prosecuting any of the 508 cases. > > Perhaps they could be prosecuted if the evidence included the use of a photo ID illegally. Or perhaps they could be prosecuted as-is. Those felons who voted? You could prosecute them. You have their names, you know who they are, you can go after them. How did they figure out that it was a felon voting if they didn’t know that? My guess is that the state is hesitant to prosecute cases of voter fraud that were almost certainly born out of mistakes or lack of understanding, of people who technically weren’t allowed to vote but may not have known that. How do you even know these people aren’t getting prosecuted? Also, how is a felon voting with a photo ID “using a photo ID illegally”? Everything about this stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, retrograde, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, retarded, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, imbecilic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, dense, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, idiotic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, moronic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, pedantic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, hypothetical, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, hypocritical _bullshit_ is _STUPID_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10448 "2017-04-27T11:36:11Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Or perhaps they could be prosecuted as-is. Those felons who voted? You could prosecute them. You have their names, you know who they are, you can go after them. How did they figure out that it was a felon voting if they didn’t know that? They just have a name, and it matches the name of a felon, but if the felon denies voting, it’s harder to convict. If the felon produced ID to vote, then getting a jury conviction is easier. > [@](#): > > My guess is that the state is hesitant to prosecute cases of voter fraud that were almost certainly born out of mistakes or lack of understanding, of people who technically weren’t allowed to vote but may not have known that. How do you even know these people aren’t getting prosecuted? Because these cases always happen, and if you’ll look back in this thread, people bray about the lack of successful convictions. You think they will be prosecuted? Wanna bet? > [@](#): > > Also, how is a felon voting with a photo ID “using a photo ID illegally”? I should have said, “Using a photo ID when they voted illegally.” > [@](#): > > Everything about this stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, retrograde, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, retarded, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, imbecilic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, dense, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, idiotic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, moronic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, pedantic, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, hypothetical, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, hypocritical _bullshit_ is _STUPID_. To the contrary, your apparent belief that repetition constitutes argument is the only thing that might deserve this assessment. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10449 "2017-04-27T11:51:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why wouldn’t it apply to 507 cases? Because you didn’t do this: > [@Bricker](#): > > I should have said, “Using a photo ID when they voted illegally.” Which is a different thing entirely. I also note that the goalpost has moved from “Would have prevented the tiny, tiny number of in-person voter frauds” to “Might also facilitate prosecution of non-fraud voting offenses”, which could also be dealt with by, say, taking a fingerprint when voting. No worries about not being able to obtain ID, and even more conclusive proof that the felon (or whomever) cast an invalid vote. It’s a win-win all around. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10450 "2017-04-27T12:37:10Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Because you didn’t do this: > Which is a different thing entirely. Yes, that was a very quick dash-off of a post – my error. > [@Gyrate](#): > > I also note that the goalpost has moved from “Would have prevented the tiny, tiny number of in-person voter frauds” to “Might also facilitate prosecution of non-fraud voting offenses”, Said me in this very thread, June 14, 2012: > [@Bricker](#): > > No, we haven’t. > > Requiring an ID to cash checks does not ensure that no checks are ever fraudulently passed. But it does, as I said, create a framework that usually allows for successful prosecution of a bad check writer. And many other posts as well. That’s always been part of my goalpost location. > [@Gyrate](#): > > …which could also be dealt with by, say, taking a fingerprint when voting. No worries about not being able to obtain ID, and even more conclusive proof that the felon (or whomever) cast an invalid vote. It’s a win-win all around. Huh. If only someone had suggested that. Like me, June 15, 2012: > [@Bricker](#): > > I would absolutely be in favor of a thumb print at voting time, reliably associated with the name and address of the voter. In fact, that’s better than a photo ID. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10451 "2017-04-27T13:23:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that was a very quick dash-off of a post – my error. > > Said me in this very thread, June 14, 2012: > > And many other posts as well. That’s always been part of my goalpost location. > > Huh. > > If only someone had suggested that. > > Like me, June 15, 2012: And no one has really argued with the fingerprinting idea. In fact, it’s a better idea than voter ID, both because it is much more accessible, people don’t need to go to the DMV to get their fingerprint attached to their finger, and it’s more reliable than an ID, in that if I voted fraudulently, even with ID, I would use as a defense that the poll worker is looking at hundreds of pictures, and that it is very likely that they could have made a mistake. Less so for a finger print. So, those republicans won’t listen to us, as we are their ideological enemies, so if we suggest fingerprints to them, they will laugh and scoff. As a republican, if it is your suggestion, they may listen to you. Privacy groups may raise a stink, but they can keep it to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10452 "2017-04-27T13:59:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, those republicans won’t listen to us, as we are their ideological enemies, so if we suggest fingerprints to them, they will laugh and scoff. As a republican, if it is your suggestion, they may listen to you. > > Privacy groups may raise a stink, but they can keep it to themselves. Going from memory (always dangerous) the fingerprint scheme was offered as a proposal in only one state, by a Republican, and died in part due to an otherwise generally left-leaning privacy watchdog group. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10453 "2017-04-27T14:17:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Going from memory (always dangerous) the fingerprint scheme was offered as a proposal in only one state, by a Republican, and died in part due to an otherwise generally left-leaning privacy watchdog group. And that’s why I said privacy groups can keep to themselves. Most of the major ones, like the EFF sprang up in opposition to the patriot act, which was created by a republican, so they are more nominally aligned with the left than the right. But the EFF didn’t exactly give Obama a pass on privacy issues, so while I will agree that they are likely made up of largely left leaning people, and the groups themselves lean left, they do not represent the left, nor should they really be taken all that seriously most of the time. (The fact that they are watchdog groups means that they are going to call out any time they see anything that remotely resembles an intrusion on privacy, which is useful, because then more centrist and rational actors can decide if it’s nothing, it’s not a real danger, but should be watched, or that it actually is a real danger to be opposed, but those decisions are made by the electorate or the leadership of the party, not by the groups themselves.) If only one state proposed this idea, and it was knocked down because some random third party group objected, that’s pretty weak tea, and it is obviously not something that they republicans have really considered as a good alternative to voter ID, even though it has advantages not only in increasing the reliability of identifying a fraudulent voter, but because it also does not force those who are living on the margins of society to go through various arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles in order to exercise their right to vote. Like I said, I’d be happy to advocate for fingerprint ID, but they people in charge are not likely to listen to me. It would have to be an idea that came from republicans to get any traction, and I don’t see any republicans pushing for it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10454 "2017-04-27T14:47:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Going from memory (always dangerous) the fingerprint scheme was offered as a proposal in only one state, by a Republican, and died in part due to an otherwise generally left-leaning privacy watchdog group. It generally hasn’t been considered because it’s a stupid idea. Fingerprinting every voter for every vote would impose massive time and cost burdens, and provide essentially zero benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10455 "2017-04-27T14:50:59Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Like I said, I’d be happy to advocate for fingerprint ID, but they people in charge are not likely to listen to me. It would have to be an idea that came from republicans to get any traction, and I don’t see any republicans pushing for it. Perhaps you could start by advocating fingerprint ID to those in this thread who think it is a stupid idea that provides zero benefit? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10456 "2017-04-27T15:51:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Like I said, I’d be happy to advocate for fingerprint ID, but they people in charge are not likely to listen to me. It would have to be an idea that came from republicans to get any traction, and I don’t see any republicans pushing for it. It was a state senate Republican that proposed the bill I’m thinking of, and he himself was in only because he won a coin toss after his ultra-close election was a tie. And although several Democrats supported it, the opposition of other Democrats citing privacy concerns killed it. (Again, as I recall). So while I appreciate your input that privacy groups should “be ignored,” that didn’t happen. I have written to my state delegate and state senator three times in four years urging my state to consider fingerprints as an alternative to photo ID. Neither the Democrat or the Republican has proposed it, however. If you’ll look back through this thread, fingerprints were opposed by left-leaning posters; you could hone your arguments with them. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10457 "2017-04-27T15:55:52Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > It generally hasn’t been considered because it’s a stupid idea. Fingerprinting every voter for every vote would impose massive time and cost burdens, and provide essentially zero benefit. Two things. First, the cost is an ink pad per voting station, and a pad of paper to put it in if you have gone electronic. Second, fingerprint ID would be an alternative form of ID, in the case that you cannot produce a valid ID, so there would be no need to fingerprint every voter, just the few that currently have ID issues. And the benefit would be an end to the contention that voter ID laws are racist or at least partisan. (and it would benefit those who are actually concerned about fraud being a real concern in turning elections, to assuage their unfounded, but apparently well supported by legislative, concerns) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10458 "2017-04-27T15:56:26Z")
[Here is an example.](https://thinkprogress.org/new-mexico-senator-proposes-voter-id-plan-to-scan-voters-eyeballs-or-thumbprints-7c172ca11ca3) > [@](#): > > Republican State Senator and Minority Whip Bill Payne’s measure, introduced Thursday, would require voters scan their irises, thumbprints or some other unique physical characteristic using biometric identification technology. The proposal would be an alternative to traditional voter ID, which is currently not required in New Mexico but is likely to gain traction in the state legislature this session because of the new Republican majority in the state House of Representatives. > . > . > . > “Voters should not have to trade their privacy and biological data in order to participate in democracy,” Dave Maass, an investigative researcher with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told ThinkProgress. > . > . > . > New Mexico is also home to a large number of immigrants. Nearly half of all New Mexicans are Latino or Asian and undocumented immigrants comprised 4.3 percent of the state’s population in 2010. While undocumented immigrants are not permitted to vote, thumbprint machines or other DNA scanning technology at the polls could be enough to scare away those with undocumented family members. As of 2008, 8.7 percent of registered voters in New Mexico were naturalized citizens or the U.S.-born children of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10459 "2017-04-27T15:59:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps you could start by advocating fingerprint ID to those in this thread who think it is a stupid idea that provides zero benefit? I’m not a person in charge. If I was, I’d provide convenient free IDs to those people who didn’t have them, for significantly less expense than fingerprinting. In fact the only reason we don’t do that now is that (most rational) Republicans don’t actually care about voter ID, they just use it as a excuse to deny votes to those who are likely to vote against them. (same problem as with fingerprinting–the problem it’s intended to solve is an imaginary problem–no reason to go to any expense to solve it). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10460 "2017-04-27T16:03:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Two things. First, the cost is an ink pad per voting station, and a pad of paper to put it in if you have gone electronic. > > Second, fingerprint ID would be an alternative form of ID, in the case that you cannot produce a valid ID, so there would be no need to fingerprint every voter, just the few that currently have ID issues. > > And the benefit would be an end to the contention that voter ID laws are racist or at least partisan. (and it would benefit those who are actually concerned about fraud being a real concern in turning elections, to assuage their unfounded, but apparently well supported by legislative, concerns) Also training costs–those poll workers are going to have to take the fingerprints, and I imagine most of them don’t know how. Plus the time cost of doing it; how much longer do you think it would take to vote if every voter had to get fingerprinted? But most importantly, Republicans don’t actually care about reducing voter fraud, so why would they bother to implement a measure to prevent it, if that measure makes it easy for Democrats to vote? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=522) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=524)