# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 533
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10641 "2017-12-21T04:17:42Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > See, this is why you get pitted. > > Nobody said there was zero fraud - that’s a straw man. Might work in your courtroom but it won’t work in this one. We’re talking about a handful of cases of fraud that were documented in the presidential election – compared to thousands of voters who are impacted by things like voter ID laws and who get their names thrown off of voter rolls by cross-check systems that target certain demographics. And I am saying that in ultra-close elections, those handful could change the result. Also saying that the “impact” to thousands of voters is not the kind of impact that society recognizes as undue. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Lurker\_Above](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@The\_Lurker\_Above](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Lurker_Above)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10642 "2017-12-21T04:34:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And in turn, my argument is that the “thumb,” doesn’t create any obstacle to voting that reasonable people would object to. > > This is why Voter ID laws enjoy such broad public support. > > But I am certainly willing to agree to disagree. Huh, so adding regulations is good. If it makes people feel better/more confident. And regulations that have ‘broad public support’ are also praiseworthy. You really should go and let the people arguing about Net Neutrality in GD know about this. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10643 "2017-12-21T04:48:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And I am saying that in ultra-close elections, those handful could change the result. Also saying that the “impact” to thousands of voters is not the kind of impact that society recognizes as undue. It’s not the kind that white society recognizes as undue. Don’t confuse your experience with everyone else’s. You’re using the language of an elitist. You’re invalidating your arguments. Your thoughts and ideas are invalid. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10644 "2017-12-21T04:49:38Z")
> [@The\_Lurker\_Above](#): > > Huh, so adding regulations is good. If it makes people feel better/more confident. And regulations that have ‘broad public support’ are also praiseworthy. > > You really should go and let the people arguing about Net Neutrality in GD know about this. No, because if I did that I’d be making the basic error of conflating two roles of government: government-as-actor and government-as-mediator. I favor government making rules to manage its own projects and process. This is a necessity if the government is to run any project. I disfavor the government imposing rules on external projects and processes. Sometimes it is necessary, to be sure, but I content that the initial default position should be to avoid imposing regulation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10645 "2017-12-21T04:54:12Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > It’s not the kind that white society recognizes as undue. Don’t confuse your experience with everyone else’s. You’re using the language of an elitist. You’re invalidating your arguments. Your thoughts and ideas are invalid. Are you under the impression that there’s a non-white legislature somewhere who gets to make different rules for non-whites? See, there isn’t. There is one society for the purposes of making law. Now, if you wish to take that brilliant idea and publish some libby lefty sociological journal article about how elitist language invalidates law, go right ahead. You’ll probably win a big grant to study invidious language and its violent attacks on helpless marginalized communities. I think verbs are the most injurious, myself. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10646 "2017-12-21T05:14:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you under the impression that there’s a non-white legislature somewhere who gets to make different rules for non-whites? > > See, there isn’t. > > There is one society for the purposes of making law. Now, if you wish to take that brilliant idea and publish some libby lefty sociological journal article about how elitist language invalidates law, go right ahead. You’ll probably win a big grant to study invidious language and its violent attacks on helpless marginalized communities. I think verbs are the most injurious, myself. Good night, Bricker. You’re better than this, which is why I’m not being as harsh as I could be. But we’re done. Your arguments aren’t to be taken seriously. Night night, kiddo. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10647 "2017-12-21T05:29:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is why Voter ID laws enjoy such broad public support. Not here in Minnesota they don’t – we voted them down! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10648 "2017-12-21T05:46:23Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Actually, what he said is no longer operative. > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/court-tosses-out-one-vote-victory-in-recount-that-had-briefly-ended-a-republican-majority-in-virginia/2017/12/20/ed979a70-e5b9-11e7-a65d-1ac0fd7f097e\_story.html?utm\_term=.2ff08016a91e](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/court-tosses-out-one-vote-victory-in-recount-that-had-briefly-ended-a-republican-majority-in-virginia/2017/12/20/ed979a70-e5b9-11e7-a65d-1ac0fd7f097e_story.html?utm_term=.2ff08016a91e) > > So I guess he doesn’t win the thread after all. Your link shows > [@](#): > > Get access to this story, and every story, on the web and in our apps. Try 4 weeks for $1, then just $6/4 weeks after that. But I assume if I clear my cookies or whatever it takes I’ll learn that the GOP are cheating again. Ho, hum. ‘Dog bites man.’ I’ll waste the clicks to clear my cookies when ‘Man bites dog.’ I’m pretty sure that Moore, losing a close election, would be on his way to the Senate with the assistance of cheaters except that so many GOPsters had disassociated themselves from him. Date a teenager, you’re ineligible; help steal a trillion dollar dollars and you’ll get a plaque at Trump Tower. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10649 "2017-12-21T05:50:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not at all! > > The people of Virginia are wise enough to understand that if anyone can’t get an ID to vote, when it’s offered for no cost, it’s their own damn fault, not a barrier to voting that should concern anyone. > > That’s the way we roll in Virginia, where personal responsibility means something. **Bricker** is a one-man philanthropy act, as he’s told us many times. I’m sure he was prowling the alleys to help [the fine moral Virginians in this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-Ydoh_5EjU) register to vote. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10650 "2017-12-21T09:53:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a shame. Do you also believe that your view on the issue should prevail even though more of your fellow Virginians disagree, and they expressed that disagreement by electing delegates and state senators who enacted that disagreement into law, and elected a governor who signed the law? > > Is that your view of how this business should work? That you get to decide the issue, regardless of what the legislature says? I think that many of most of these instances likely violate the VRA, as you earlier agreed (as did the courts) the NC case did, though depending on the evidence this is more of less provable depending on the case. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10651 "2017-12-21T11:21:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And in turn, my argument is that the “thumb,” doesn’t create any obstacle to voting that reasonable people would object to. > > This is why Voter ID laws enjoy such broad public support. > > But I am certainly willing to agree to disagree. [You’re just wrong.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.495d329411fc) Sorry, but that’s the long and short of it. If we’re legitimately worried about one vote, maybe we should be equally worried about someone’s grandmother who would have voted in this election but couldn’t because she couldn’t afford the fees to get a birth certificate she never had in order to get a photo ID she never needed. But Myrtle Delahuerta, 85, who lives across town from Randall, has tried unsuccessfully for two years to get her ID. She has the same problem of her birth certificate not matching her pile of other legal documents that she carts from one government office to the next. The disabled woman, who has difficulty walking, is applying to have her name legally changed, a process that will cost her more than $300 and has required a background check and several trips to government offices. “I hear from people nearly weekly who can’t get an ID either because of poverty, transportation issues or because of the government’s incompetence,” said Chad W. Dunn, a lawyer with Brazil & Dunn in Houston, who has specialized in voting rights work for 15 years. “Sometimes government officials don’t know what the law requires,” Dunn said. “People take a day off work to go down to get the so-called free birth certificates. People who are poor, with no car and no Internet access, get up, take the bus, transfer a couple of times, stand in line for an hour and then are told they don’t have the right documents or it will cost them money they don’t have.” There’s more of these people than there are actual cases of in-person voter fraud. Even discounting those who were “discouraged”, the list of people for whom it would be prohibitively expensive is long enough. Oh, and by the way: > [@](#): > > But because we require ID here in Virginia, voters are reasonably confident that this was a legitimate result, and that one illegal vote wasn’t at fault. What, exactly, was done about Absentee Ballot fraud? Y’know, that thing that’s far more common than in-person impersonation voter fraud? And do you have any actual evidence that there’s a difference in voter confidence in election results between voter ID states and non-voter-ID states, or are you just pulling that assertion out of your ass? You’re hawking the same bad arguments you were 4 fucking years ago, and literally nothing has changed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10652 "2017-12-21T12:27:49Z")
**Trump’s voter fraud panel has gone dark. Members don’t know why.** > **[Trump's voter fraud panel has gone dark. Members don't know why.](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-s-voter-fraud-panel-has-gone-dark-members-don-n827796)** > > President Donald Trump's voter fraud commission seems to have been silenced by lawsuits, and members have no clue what's going on. > [@](#): > > No one seems to know what’s going on lately with President Donald Trump’s voter fraud commission — not even its own members. > > “I have not heard anything since the New Hampshire meeting,” the state’s secretary of state, Bill Gardner, told NBC News, referring to the commission’s Sept. 12 gathering, the panel’s most recent… > > …The commission was formed by President Donald Trump in May to examine the American electoral system, including whether large-scale vote fraud exists. Trump has claimed, without evidence, that millions of people voted illegally last year. _Commission members are sharply divided on the issue._… (Emphasis added in shock, horror, and dismay) Goodness! “Sharply divided”! About what? On the basis of what evidence? > [@](#): > > …Trump’s panel has held only two public meetings, and at its latest session members clashed over whether there was substantial voter fraud in last year’s elections… Ah! Well, that clears _that_ up! . > [@](#): > > …Meanwhile, three commission members were panelists at a conference in Nashville this month by the influential American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a well-funded conservative group that pushes state-level legislation. > > Adams, Hans von Spakovsky and Christy McCormick spoke about voting-related matters, including the claim that a large number non-U.S. citizens are voting, according to The Huffington Post. > > _“Well, I can tell you the greatest foreign influence in our elections are aliens who are getting on the rolls and aliens who are voting,” Adams said at the conference_… (emphasis added spasmodically, while puking my guts out…) This all underscores one of Friend Bricker’s points: clearly, “some” Republicans have malign motives in all of this. Good catch, Counselor, keep up the…ah…good work. The fight for half-truth, injustice, and the American Way. America, where equality before the law actually _means_…something. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10653 "2017-12-21T15:13:07Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You’re hawking the same bad arguments you were 4 fucking years ago, and literally nothing has changed. Nothing has changed? Good. Voter ID remains the law? Good! Great, in fact. So these terrible arguments of mine, which should convince no one . . . actually seem to be working. And your unassailable arguments, the pinnacle of reason and logic . . . haven’t done jack, or shit. Is that it? Good. See, I don’t need to convince YOU. You’re a lost cause, bedeviled by liberal mush-headedness. If I could convince you, I’d immediately suspect my premise was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10654 "2017-12-21T15:22:53Z")
Whatever reputation you get as the board’s “smart conservative” is so unearned that it’s painful. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10655 "2017-12-21T15:25:55Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Not here in Minnesota they don’t – we voted them down! Which, amazingly enough: I fully support. I think it’s unwise, mind you, but it’s not my call; Minnesotans get to craft their own procedures after weighing the risks associated with close elections. I support the result obtained by the legislature, either way. In contrast to my cadre of interlocutors, who support it piously when they agree with it and denounce it as invalid otherwise, running to the courts to cry. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10656 "2017-12-21T15:28:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that many of most of these instances likely violate the VRA, as you earlier agreed (as did the courts) the NC case did, though depending on the evidence this is more of less provable depending on the case. But when the courts disagree? Then what do you think? You still think your view should prevail? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10657 "2017-12-21T16:12:14Z")
I’m still curious, \*\*Bricker \*\*, on your confidence of the election results when one form of ID is so easily forged? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10658 "2017-12-21T16:17:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Nothing has changed? Good. Voter ID remains the law? Good! Great, in fact. > > So these terrible arguments of mine, which should convince no one . . . actually seem to be working. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Whatever reputation you get as the board’s “smart conservative” is so unearned that it’s painful. Indeed, and I have to point out that he is wilfully ignoring that people like me are not in theory opposed to voter ID, only that in practice it has been shown that in several states the ones applying it did it in a way so as to prevent minorities or the poor from voting. Again (like for the 100th time) the problem is that **Bricker** does not care at all that he ends up supporting bigots and elitists in their voter repression efforts. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10659 "2017-12-21T16:24:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But when the courts disagree? Then what do you think? You still think your view should prevail? The world would indeed be better off were I the supreme leader with complete and irrefutable power. Is that what you’re asking? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10660 "2017-12-21T16:42:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The world would indeed be better off were I the supreme leader with complete and irrefutable power. > > Is that what you’re asking? No, not exactly. I am sure you think your views are right – else why would you hold them? But do you think they are so self-evidently right that they should supplant the actual processes we have in place to govern? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=532) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=534)