# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 547
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10921 "2018-06-18T22:47:14Z")
Ouch, that’s gotta hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10922 "2018-06-18T23:18:07Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The rational basis is to prevent voter fraud by requiring ID. Same as any of the other laws discussed in this thread. At the risk of being or sounding snarky, it appears to me that you don’t understand the rational basis test. Can you describe what you think it is? And then can you describe how your idea for ID would fit into what you’ve just described? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10923 "2018-06-18T23:40:10Z")
Here’s the [full Kansas decision](http://media.kansascity.com/livegraphics/2018/pdf/Kobach-ruling.pdf). > [@](#): > > It is not clear to the Court whether Defendant repeatedly failed to meet his disclosure obligations intentionally or due to his unfamiliarity with the federal rules. Therefore, the Court finds that an additional sanction is appropriate in the form of Continuing Legal Education. I love this so much. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10924 "2018-06-19T02:52:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At the risk of being or sounding snarky, it appears to me that you don’t understand the rational basis test. > > Can you describe what you think it is? And then can you describe how your idea for ID would fit into what you’ve just described? Near as I can tell from your previous assertions it requires the there be a rational (albeit possibly tissue thin) relationship between the law and a proposed state interest. In this case, making sure that all voters are who they say the are. This is basically the drivers license requirement but with different details of implementation. As to why this method might serve the state interest better than mere drivers licenses, I would point out that unlike the DMV which might give out licenses to those with fraudulent documents, school and union IDs allows for a high probability that those providing the ID actually know the person in question, and so vouch for their identity. But truth be told the whole idea of drivers licenses just slipped our minds. This when we thought of ID at the local bicycle Co-op everyone had student or union IDs and no-one had drivers licenses so that is the law we wrote and passed through the legislature. Yes it might have been possible to implement a more fair way of doing things, but its all water under the bridge. Are you going to be an activist court judge and overturn the will of the people? For shame. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10925 "2018-06-19T04:22:23Z")
All co-ops, but especially bike coops, are separate and independent soviets, subject to the advice but not authority from the evolutionary cadres. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10926 "2018-06-19T04:46:46Z")
[Mother Jones on the Kansas decision](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/06/kris-kobach-gets-what-he-deserves/) — Republican-appointed judge orders Kris Kobach to take law classes. Love it! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10927 "2018-06-19T21:29:01Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Near as I can tell from your previous assertions it requires the there be a rational (albeit possibly tissue thin) relationship between the law and a proposed state interest. In this case, making sure that all voters are who they say the are. This is basically the drivers license requirement but with different details of implementation. > > As to why this method might serve the state interest better than mere drivers licenses, I would point out that unlike the DMV which might give out licenses to those with fraudulent documents, school and union IDs allows for a high probability that those providing the ID actually know the person in question, and so vouch for their identity. > > But truth be told the whole idea of drivers licenses just slipped our minds. This when we thought of ID at the local bicycle Co-op everyone had student or union IDs and no-one had drivers licenses so that is the law we wrote and passed through the legislature. Yes it might have been possible to implement a more fair way of doing things, but its all water under the bridge. Are you going to be an activist court judge and overturn the will of the people? For shame. Do you discern any possibility that the above description might be even slightly flawed in its attempt to describe how the rational basis test works? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10928 "2018-06-19T23:36:55Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > [Mother Jones on the Kansas decision](https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2018/06/kris-kobach-gets-what-he-deserves/) — Republican-appointed judge orders Kris Kobach to take law classes. Love it! It really goes to the point I made early to **Bricker**. It matters who the people enforcing and making the new laws are, they are not acting in good faith. It should had been obvious that many Republicans that he supports are not doing so. > [@](#): > > Here’s something to cheer you up. A few years ago, Kris Kobach, the odious immigration hardliner who is currently Kansas Secretary of State, shepherded a voter ID bill through the Kansas legislature. Today, a Republican federal judge struck down the law in an opinion so incendiary it’s a wonder Kobach himself didn’t go up in flames. She ruled that the law was unconstitutional; that Kobach produced no real evidence of voter fraud; that Kobach’s “expert witnesses” were cretins; and that the law prevented tens of thousands of legal voters from casting ballots. > > But that’s not the best part. Kobach chose to personally represent Kansas in this case, and he persistently flouted the rules of evidence by failing to disclose documents and repeatedly trying to introduce new data that he had not given opposing lawyers a chance to see: > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > The disclosure violations set forth above document a pattern and practice by Defendant of flaunting disclosure and discovery rules that are designed to prevent prejudice and surprise at trial. The Court ruled on each disclosure issue as it arose, but given the repeated instances involved, and the fact that Defendant resisted the Court’s rulings by continuing to try to introduce such evidence after exclusion, the Court finds that further sanctions are appropriate. > > > > ``` > [@](#): > > And Kris Kobach himself gets the ultimate sanction from the court for his failure to comply with the court’s evidentiary rules: he has to go back to school to learn evidence! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10929 "2018-06-20T00:21:57Z")
I’d drifted away from this thread some time ago after being a fairly active participant, but I will gladly return to express my amusement at the sanctions laid on Kobach. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10930 "2018-06-20T00:34:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you discern any possibility that the above description might be even slightly flawed in its attempt to describe how the rational basis test works? Hey, your the law talking guy, oh Socrates. I’m just a lowly civil servant with[google](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/rational_basis) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10931 "2018-06-20T03:14:09Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Hey, your the law talking guy, oh Socrates. I’m just a lowly civil servant with[google](https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/rational_basis) I checked your link carefully, and “But truth be told the whole idea of drivers licenses just slipped our minds,” doesn’t get explained. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10932 "2018-06-20T15:54:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I checked your link carefully, and “But truth be told the whole idea of drivers licenses just slipped our minds,” doesn’t get explained. It doesn’'t mention drivers licenses at all, nor does it mention finger prints, or looking up home ownership records to verify continuing residence, or any other “obvious” alternatives that would avoid bias. But from what I know of rational basis, (all of which I learned sitting at your feet as you not so obedient, and probably quite annoying, student), the choice of implementation and potential side effects are irrelevant so long as it provides some minimal step in the direction of a rational goal. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10933 "2018-06-20T16:48:25Z")
Maybe if you quit trying to change the subject? The principle of voter ID and its legality/Constitutionality are the _real_ subjects of this thread, despite the misleading title. It doesn’t matter if a law can be used for malign political purposes, so long as the law itself has a valid neutral justification. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10934 "2018-06-20T16:51:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > so long as the law itself has a valid neutral justification. No matter what contortions you have to go through, or simply lie about, to invent one that the writers never even thought of. Right on this very board, from our own resident Law-Talkin’ Guys, is where I learned that a valid neutral justification need be neither valid, nor neutral, nor a justification. The law really is an ass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10935 "2018-06-21T02:05:13Z")
> **[Kansas secretary of state defies court order, won’t register eligible voters](https://thinkprogress.org/kobach-defies-court-voter-id-72f3279dd2a0/)** > > “I think ‘immediately’ is kind of open to interpretation,” his office said. > [@](#): > > **Kansas secretary of state defies court order, won’t register eligible voters** > > “I think ‘immediately’ is kind of open to interpretation,” his office said. Its _ThinkProgress_, maybe they’re making shit up ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10936 "2018-06-21T06:12:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [Kansas secretary of state defies court order, won’t register eligible voters – ThinkProgress](https://thinkprogress.org/kobach-defies-court-voter-id-72f3279dd2a0/) > Its _ThinkProgress_, maybe they’re making shit up Good news–he caved. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10937 "2018-06-21T07:30:38Z")
Well, darn, kinda hoping he would press his luck just a _little_ bit more. His is a face that cries out for a plant. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10938 "2018-06-21T18:00:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Good news–he caved. Linky? I don’t want to sully my search history with that guy’s name. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10939 "2018-06-21T19:16:12Z")
Google “Kurt Knoblick”, probably work. But yeah, I read that too, he has instructed his clerks to, ah, obey the law. Damn white of him. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/10940 "2018-06-21T19:22:26Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Linky? > > I don’t want to sully my search history with that guy’s name. [Read](http://theweek.com/speedreads/780370/kansas-secretary-state-kris-kobach-complies-court-ruling-against-voter-law-curious-caveat) all about it. This article also points out that Judge Robinson is a George W. Bush appointee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=546) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=548)