# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 55
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1081 "2012-07-09T14:21:03Z")
> [@](#): > > So my point is: prudence dictates we implement a system ahead of time that allows us to reliably associate voters with voting. You already have such a system in place and according to all available research it does so with 99.999% effectiveness. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1082 "2012-07-09T14:21:59Z")
> [@](#): > > …My argument is identical to the post I just quoted from myself, three weeks ago. Your desperate need to win a point, any point, has touched my generous core. I concede the point, and will throw appropriate confetti for your victory boogie. It could only be improved by any actual mention of voter confidence, but i haven’t the heart to rob you of this triumph. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1083 "2012-07-09T14:24:37Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > You already have such a system in place and according to all available research it does so with 99.999% effectiveness. **Bricker** doesn’t seem to understand that 0.00004% is the same when the total votes cast are 126 million or 126. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1084 "2012-07-09T14:24:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When we invest in such procedures, we mitigate the risk of another Florida-2000 clouding the legitimacy of the next President. That’s easily worth the money being spent. Florida 2000 had nothing to do with voter fraud and everything to do with [awful ballot design](http://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1085 "2012-07-09T14:28:19Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > You already have such a system in place and according to all available research it does so with 99.999% effectiveness. No, we don’t. The “research” is negative – since we cannot reliably prove that a particular voter actually voted, we cannot meaningfully prosecute voter fraud. You cannot, then, point to the lack of prosecutions as proof that the fraud does not exist. For example, I have previously shown [this case:](http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/elections/gov-rick-scott-florida-is-absolutely-not-targeting-minorities-in/1233277) > [@](#): > > Since elections records show each voted — Cue once in 1996 and Walters seven times since 2000 — the office forwarded the men’s names to the Miami-Dade State Attorney’s Office. The two could face third-degree felony charges. > > “We are investigating the allegations,” said Ed Griffith, Miami-Dade State Attorney’s Office spokesman. “First, we need to make sure the data is accurate.” > > No easy task. Any large-scale effort to clean voter rolls is beset with false positives and errors due to misspellings and inaccurate addresses in a database of more than 11 million active voters, plus nearly 1 million more classified as inactive voters. > > Cue, 53 and from Miami, told the Herald he’s a schizophrenic, doesn’t remember voting and said three others have his same name and birth date. “I’ve never voted a day in my life,” Cue said. “I’ve lived in this house for 14 years and I have never filled out any paperwork regarding voting.” So here’s a guy who simply denies he voted, even though records show that someone using his name and address did vote. But without any way to prove that Cue was the actual person, a prosecution is highly unlikely to be successful. But you point to the lack of such prosecutions as evidence there is no illegal voting. Instead, the lack proves nothing, since even if there were such illegal voting, prosecutions wouldn’t be in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1086 "2012-07-09T14:30:56Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > Florida 2000 had nothing to do with voter fraud and everything to do with [awful ballot design](http://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html). Unquestionably awful ballot design played a part. That doesn’t address the point, though – what of elections where ballot design is not an issue. Was the 2004 Washington election also a ballot design problem? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1087 "2012-07-09T14:31:31Z")
But it could! Assuming that voter fraud actually exists to any measurable extent, it then becomes possible that such a factor might have a measurable impact! Given a set of extraordinary events, at the very limit of the possible, it could happen! I am reminded of a Warner Bros cartoon where Daffy Duck sells an insurance policy that only pays if the injury occurs as a result of an elephant stampede in a raging snowstorm on the 4th of July. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1088 "2012-07-09T14:32:24Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > **Bricker** doesn’t seem to understand that 0.00004% is the same when the total votes cast are 126 million or 126. I have no idea where the figure “0.00004%” came from, and what its applicability to this discussion is. So, true, I can’t begin to parse out what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1089 "2012-07-09T14:35:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, we don’t. The “research” is negative – since we cannot reliably prove that a particular voter actually voted, we cannot meaningfully prosecute voter fraud. You cannot, then, point to the lack of prosecutions as proof that the fraud does not exist. Quit intentionally conflating prosecution with identification, you weasel. We’ve been all through this before, and you ultimately ran away from it when we were done. Count anyone who says they didn’t vote as a case of voter fraud. We’ll allow you to do that even when they are impaired in a manner that might mean their report is a false positive. That has nothing to do with prosecution and everything to do with measuring the scope of the “problem.” God, but you are a deceitful slimeball. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1090 "2012-07-09T14:35:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But it could! Assuming that voter fraud actually exists to any measurable extent, it then becomes possible that such a factor might have a measurable impact! Given a set of extraordinary events, at the very limit of the possible, it could happen! > > I am reminded of a Warner Bros cartoon where Daffy Duck sells an insurance policy that only pays if the injury occurs as a result of an elephant stampede in a raging snowstorm on the 4th of July. Washington State, 2004. Indiana’s 8th congressional district, 1984. United States Senate election in New Hampshire, 1974. Alaska House of Representatives District 7, 2008. United States Senate election in Minnesota, 2008. Connecticut’s 2nd congressional district, 1994. Gee, how many elephants are there in snowstorms? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1091 "2012-07-09T14:35:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …But you point to the lack of such prosecutions as evidence there is no illegal voting… I don’t think he actually said anything about prosecutions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1092 "2012-07-09T14:37:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Washington State, 2004. > Indiana’s 8th congressional district, 1984. > United States Senate election in New Hampshire, 1974. > Alaska House of Representatives District 7, 2008. > United States Senate election in Minnesota, 2008. > Connecticut’s 2nd congressional district, 1994. > > Gee, how many elephants are there in snowstorms? About as many as there are links to support your suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1093 "2012-07-09T14:37:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no idea where the figure “0.00004%” came from, and what its applicability to this discussion is. So, true, I can’t begin to parse out what you mean. I’m sure you cannot, because basic math properties appear to elude you. It’s good you pursued a career where such skills are not needed. I’m quite certain, by the way, that you’ve already been provided with the 0.00004% figure, and with at least one source for it. But see here, you lying weasel sack: > **[Policy Brief on the Truth About "Voter Fraud"](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/policy-brief-truth-about-voter-fraud)** > > Fraud by individual voters is both irrational and extremely rare. Raising the unsubstantiated specter of mass voter fraud suits a particular policy agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1094 "2012-07-09T14:40:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Quit intentionally conflating prosecution with identification, you weasel. > > We’ve been all through this before, and you ultimately ran away from it when we were done. Count anyone who says they didn’t vote as a case of voter fraud. We’ll allow you to do that even when they are impaired in a manner that might mean their report is a false positive. > > That has nothing to do with prosecution and everything to do with measuring the scope of the “problem.” > > God, but you are a deceitful slimeball. On the contrary, I haven’t run away from anything. You have laid out a method which, if used across the board, could indeed identify the scope of illegal votes. So far as you have shown, though, it hasn’t been done in anything approaching a comprehensive way, and yet you insist that we should assume the numbers are zero until proven otherwise. Frustrated with that refutation of your claims, you resort to hurling insults my way, apparently hoping I’ll be cowed by your barrage of mean words and stop pointing out your lack of solid evidentiary support. So far, though, I keep remembering the sticks and stones thing, so it’s not working. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1095 "2012-07-09T14:49:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m sure you cannot, because basic math properties appear to elude you. > > It’s good you pursued a career where such skills are not needed. > > I’m quite certain, by the way, that you’ve already been provided with the 0.00004% figure, and with at least one source for it. But see here, you lying weasel sack: > > [Policy Brief on the Truth About "Voter Fraud" | Brennan Center for Justice](http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/policy_brief_on_the_truth_about_voter_fraud/) BWAHAHAHA!!! Hilarious. From a source that is obviously not neutral in the discussion, here is the source of 0.00004%: > [@](#): > > The similarly closely-analyzed 2004 election in Ohio revealed a voter fraud rate of 0.00004%. National Weather Service data shows that Americans are struck and killed by lightning about as often. So that figure comes from ONE election. And yet here’s what you said: > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Bricker doesn’t seem to understand that 0.00004% is the same when the total votes cast are 126 million or 126. Yes, I don’t understand: how is the illegal voter rate from one election “the same” as anything else, even if I accept it as the truth? That’s hilarious. The Brennan Center does not cite precisely how they “closely-analyzed” the Ohio results, but if they used person of your analytical ability, I doubt the accuracy of thier number. In any event, even they don’t claim that “0.00004%” is anything more widely applicable than the rate of illegal voters in Ohio in 2004. Why should I care about that number? ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1096 "2012-07-09T14:49:09Z")
Reading the [Wikipedia page on the ‘fraud’ in the Washington 2004 elections](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_gubernatorial_election,_2004#Further_legal_challenges) is hilarious! Some highlights (Rossi is R/Gregoire is D): > [@](#): > > The PI uncovered eight cases of votes attributed to dead people; these included one administrative error, two ballots cast by the spouses of recently deceased voters (one who voted against Gregoire), one case of a husband apparently voting his dead wife’s ballot instead of his own, and a man who legally voted his absentee ballot and then died before election day. One dead woman was marked as having voted in person at the polls.[23] > [@](#): > > Rossi’s legal team produced a list of 1,135 felons … A substantial number of the felon-voters were convicted as juveniles and were legally permitted to vote. Conservative columnists suggested that felons were more likely to vote for Gregoire, but **most of the felon-voters resided in counties won by Rossi.** > [@](#): > > Bridges removed the five votes from the final count: four for Rossi and one for Ruth Bennett. **No evidence was brought before the court of any of the illegal votes benefitted Gregoire.** Emphasis mine. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1097 "2012-07-09T14:50:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > On the contrary, I haven’t run away from anything. You have laid out a method which, if used across the board, could indeed identify the scope of illegal votes. So far as you have shown, though, it hasn’t been done in anything approaching a comprehensive way, and yet you insist that we should assume the numbers are zero until proven otherwise. > > Frustrated with that refutation of your claims, you resort to hurling insults my way, apparently hoping I’ll be cowed by your barrage of mean words and stop pointing out your lack of solid evidentiary support. > > So far, though, I keep remembering the sticks and stones thing, so it’s not working. Finally! After you repeatedly insisted that it was impossible to measure voter fraud, I had to engage in a painstaking process of hiding you and educating you about your own state’s voter registration. We delved into the social security system in order to assess how we would identify your Nordic sleeper vote fraudster. When finally we had reached the end game, I asked you in post 542: > [@](#): > > You are wrong. Identified rates are in fact extremely small still in comparison to those close races. > > Are you conceding that it is not impossible to measure voter fraud? > > And to the point, your solution will not change the rate of voter fraud. Yet it will cost a lot of money and hinder the opportunity for legitimate voters to exercise their franchise. You chose to respond by arguing that I had erred in accusing you of argumentum ad populum. Now, some 550 odd posts later, you finally man up and answer the question. Congrats. You have cells that might some day form a spine. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1098 "2012-07-09T14:59:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I don’t understand: how is the illegal voter rate from one election “the same” as anything else, even if I accept it as the truth? That’s hilarious. Because almost every other election in the US where voter fraud has been measured produces results that are as minuscule as that one? ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1099 "2012-07-09T15:07:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, just to clarify, you now agree that this statement was merely some kind of a guess on your part? And the basis of that guess was that the state rep that authored the proposed amendment’s language is a bad person? Damn; son! Asked and answered. Allow the bailiff to read from the transcript: > [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > Lawya, please. The amendment reads “valid photographic identification as prescribed by law.” There exists no current Minnesota law–that I know of, that has stood–that defines “photographic identification.” Ima let former Republican Governor Arne Carlson and former Democratic Vice-President Walter Mondale take over here [“Surprisingly, there are also two glaring omissions in the proposed amendment. The first is that it does not specify an acceptable government-issued ID. A passport would not qualify, nor would a regular student ID.”](http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/159799395.html) > > The legislative body that will be charged with prescribing “valid photographic identification” if the amendment should pass, has a history of proscribing anything that does not both have a photo and prove residency. I will thus continue to aver, like a motherfucker, that if the amendment passes, no one knows what, exactly, will be considered “valid photographic identification” but add that it’s not lookin’ real good for brother passport. Lawyas gonna loy, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1100 "2012-07-09T15:22:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > About as many as there are links to support your suggestions. Seriously? I have to type {url="jhsfdshebf387y5tuf for these because you can’t cut and paste into Google? OK. [Here is a link.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/the-2012-iowa-caucuses-and-the-10-closest-races-in-history/2012/01/04/gIQAloL4aP_blog.html) The Indiana 8th in 1984 is #2. Washington State, 2004 is #6 United States Senate election in New Hampshire, 1974, is #1. Alaska House of Representatives District 7, 2008 does not appear there, but [here is a link to his four-vote win.](http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Mike_Kelly_(Alaska_legislator)) United States Senate election in Minnesota, 2008, is #7 Connecticut’s 2nd congressional district, 1994, is #4. It took you fifteen seconds to demand the links, and me five minutes to provide it. Why didn’t you just Google them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=54) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=56)