# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 61
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1201 "2012-07-10T07:12:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Because I don’t focus so narrowly and because the number is so low, I’d be more concerned about the 50% of the population who doesn’t vote now even without those restrictions. > Really, you guys spend your lives looking down at the pennies falling off the table and don’t see the dollars blowing away in the wind. I’m very bothered by a 50% nonvoting rate. I don’t know what to do about it. But I don’t see what it has to do with this discussion at all. If I come up with some legal scheme which suppresses voter turnout an additional 5% among a specific demographic, it’s not huge compared to apathy, but it IS huge when it comes to partisan balance in swing states or regions. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1202 "2012-07-10T07:21:08Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The key difference being that if it turns out, in the eventual wisdom of time and history, that a law about abortion is wrong, then public opinion will eventually change, and the law will eventually be overturned. If, on the other hand, a law that affects voting rights is wrong/incorrect/evil, it may never be overturned because it protects itself by having already made fair elections unlikely or impossible. History doesn’t bear that out. The 19th Amendment passed, for example, as did the 24th and 26th amendments. No, we are perfectly capable of changing our laws to extend voting to whole swaths of the populace when needed. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1203 "2012-07-10T07:24:39Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’m very bothered by a 50% nonvoting rate. I don’t know what to do about it. Well a whole bunch of the people don’t like the pool of available candidates. Probably a good place to start. > [@](#): > > But I don’t see what it has to do with this discussion at all. If I come up with some legal scheme which suppresses voter turnout an additional 5% among a specific demographic, it’s not huge compared to apathy, but it IS huge when it comes to partisan balance in swing states or regions. IMHO, from looking at it from the outside, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between one group of pirates to the other, so your concern about who gets into power is moot. eg. Republicans = Against universal health care Democrats = For universal health care Republicans in power = No universal health care. Democrats in power = No universal health care. Republicans = Pro war Democrats = Against war Republicans in power = Wars around the world. Democrats in power = Wars around the world. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1204 "2012-07-10T07:37:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > History doesn’t bear that out. The 19th Amendment passed, for example, as did the 24th and 26th amendments. No, we are perfectly capable of changing our laws to extend voting to whole swaths of the populace when needed. It’s not IMPOSSIBLE for situations to resolve themselves. But it can be difficult. Look at Jim Crow laws in the South. There’s a situation where unjust laws were 100% legal and supreme-court-approved for close to a century. Now imagine a slightly different reality in which the the Jim Crow laws contained all the unfair crap about buses and schools and lunch counters, but in no way prevented black voting. Clearly, with all southerners expressing their democratic opinions about how just these laws were rather than only the white ones, the situation would have gotten better a heck of a lot faster. And if the South was left completely alone, so that court cases could go up to the Georgia Supreme Court but no higher (or what have you), the situation might well never have gotten better. That’s why laws which potentially tamper with voting rights are so dangerous. And that’s the base point I’m trying to make, which is that any law which has as a likely side effect suppression of voting should be held up to a much higher level of scrutiny than other types of laws. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1205 "2012-07-10T07:38:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Well a whole bunch of the people don’t like the pool of available candidates. Probably a good place to start. > > IMHO, from looking at it from the outside, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between one group of pirates to the other, so your concern about who gets into power is moot. > eg. > > Republicans = Against universal health care > Democrats = For universal health care > Republicans in power = No universal health care. > Democrats in power = No universal health care. > > Republicans = Pro war > Democrats = Against war > Republicans in power = Wars around the world. > Democrats in power = Wars around the world. I very very strongly disagree with what you’re saying. But it seems like a topic for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1206 "2012-07-10T14:05:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Really, you guys spend your lives looking down at the pennies falling off the table and don’t see the dollars blowing away in the wind. Except in this analogy, the Republicans are pushing the pennies off the table while setting the dollars on fire. > [@Bricker](#): > > The laws are passing, right and left. I don’t have to prove anything. It’s a done deal. I don’t agree that there’s a violence problem at polling places. How would you feel if you started a Pit thread about some group espousing eugenics and someone continually hounded you with the fact that abortion was legal and constitutional? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1207 "2012-07-10T15:16:46Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Well a whole bunch of the people don’t like the pool of available candidates. Probably a good place to start. > > IMHO, from looking at it from the outside, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between one group of pirates to the other, so your concern about who gets into power is moot. > eg. > > Republicans = Against universal health care > Democrats = For universal health care > Republicans in power = No universal health care. > Democrats in power = No universal health care. > > Republicans = Pro war > Democrats = Against war > Republicans in power = Wars around the world. > Democrats in power = Wars around the world. I’ll give you the first example, though Obamacare is a long sight better than nothing, as anyone with a pre-existing condition will tell you. The second one, not so much. Though Obama has not shut down Afghanistan as any sane and reasonable person would do, he has been winding it down, and he did manage to pull out of Iraq. He is EXTREMELY unlikely to invade Iran. If we elect Republicans, look for the warmongering about invading Iran to start almost immediately. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1208 "2012-07-10T15:39:54Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1209 "2012-07-10T15:54:35Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That’s why laws which potentially tamper with voting rights are so dangerous. And that’s the base point I’m trying to make, which is that any law which has as a likely side effect suppression of voting should be held up to a much higher level of scrutiny than other types of laws. And what would the mechanism of this “higher scrutiny” be? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1210 "2012-07-10T15:57:28Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Except in this analogy, the Republicans are pushing the pennies off the table while setting the dollars on fire. > > How would you feel if you started a Pit thread about some group espousing eugenics and someone continually hounded you with the fact that abortion was legal and constitutional? I’d feel like I do every day I post here on the Dope. I don’t like the fact that abortion is legal, but I accept it as a consequence of living in a representative democratic society. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1211 "2012-07-10T16:01:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Nobody did anything illegal. No votes were cast. Her only comments were the factual statements that no one would catch a person who registered and voted who wasn’t a citizen… Well, I must have misunderstood. I guess when you said they were illegal aliens, I thought you meant they were illegal aliens. How you knew that, you do not advise, but hey! this is **Bricker** talking here! By the way, is this the same anecdote you related in GD, the one I quoted? And it seemed as though there was a clear inference that she was counseling them on how to cast illegal votes and get away with it. You didn’t intend any such inference? Gee, my bad. Sure looked like that to me. But really, you were just relating a casual occurrence that had no particular relevance to our conversation? Yes, that’s clear now. > [@](#): > > …But what do you mean, finally have one. I have more than one now. They’ve been cited in this thread… They have? I’ll check into that, get back to you. > [@](#): > > …It’s like your mind just won’t let you remember them… Seems I’m not the only one with memory issues. At least I come by mine honestly, more or less, smoked enough weed to bury an elephant. You? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1212 "2012-07-10T16:17:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Now the cycle begins again. Sarcastic response to this news, followed a day or two later by the return of amnesia and an indignant implication that no one has ever shown you a case of voter fraud. > > Right? Having a bit of trouble finding all these cites in this thread. That Google trick doesn’t seem to work for you offering anything about the NAACP, or Tunica, or anyone named Sowers. Maybe you’ll point out these multiple cites for us, since you would be the guy who would know… From your cite: > [@](#): > > …Or unless you seek out a story appearing at _The Daily Caller_ but otherwise receiving no coverage by the national media. … Oooh, dat debbil liberal media! I think this is the second time in the thread you cited the _Daily Caller_. Regular reader, are you, lad? Weren’t you the guy who was on about dismissing citations because you found the slant on the editorial pages too obvious? But the _Daily Caller_ is OK? So, anyway, if you could just…go ahead, and clear those up, that would be great. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1213 "2012-07-10T16:18:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, I must have misunderstood. I guess when you said they were illegal aliens, I thought you meant they were illegal aliens. How you knew that, you do not advise, but hey! this is **Bricker** talking here! By the way, is this the same anecdote you related in GD, the one I quoted? Yes, they were illegal aliens. > [@](#): > > And it seemed as though there was a clear inference that she was counseling them on how to cast illegal votes and get away with it. You didn’t intend any such inference? Gee, my bad. Sure looked like that to me. But really, you were just relating a casual occurrence that had no particular relevance to our conversation? Yes, that’s clear now. There was such a clear inference. But inference alone would not be sufficient to sustain a criminal conviction. Right now, in repeating what she said, I am providing the same information – am I committing a crime? Of course not. So there was nothing to report. > [@](#): > > Seems I’m not the only one with memory issues. At least I come by mine honestly, more or less, smoked enough weed to bury an elephant. You? And here we go. Next week, undoubtedly you’ll act like no such cases exist, and the name “Lessadolla Sowers” will be lost to your recollection. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1214 "2012-07-10T16:22:46Z")
The name “Sowers” appears in this thread three times, all of them on this page. Just sayin’, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1215 "2012-07-10T16:25:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Having a bit of trouble finding all these cites in this thread. That Google trick doesn’t seem to work for you offering anything about the NAACP, or Tunica, or anyone named Sowers. Maybe you’ll point out these multiple cites for us, since you would be the guy who would know… > > From your cite: > > Oooh, dat debbil liberal media! > > I think this is the second time in the thread you cited the _Daily Caller_. Regular reader, are you, lad? Weren’t you the guy who was on about dismissing citations because you found the slant on the editorial pages too obvious? But the _Daily Caller_ is OK? > > So, anyway, if you could just…go ahead, and clear those up, that would be great. Clear up what, exactly? [Ms. Sowers?](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/07/29/despite-what-democrats-claim-voter-fraud-is-real) > **[Best search engine for True crime stories | Mugshots.com](https://mugshots.com/US-States/Mississippi/Tunica-County-MS/Lessadolla-Sowers.1616921.html)** > > Lessadolla Sowers in Mississippi Tunica County arrested for FRAUD 2/18/1944 [http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/14/why-voter-id-should-matter-to-all-americans/](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/14/why-voter-id-should-matter-to-all-americans/) Or something else? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1216 "2012-07-10T16:26:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, they were illegal aliens… In the GD thread, as quoted above, you refer to them simply as “people”, yes? Odd that you would leave out their illegal status, since that fact would clearly bolster your case. Especially when you tell us how you knew they were illegal aliens. Will that be anytime soon? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1217 "2012-07-10T16:31:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Clear up what, exactly? > > [Ms. Sowers?](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/07/29/despite-what-democrats-claim-voter-fraud-is-real) > > [Best search engine for True crime stories | Mugshots.com](http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Mississippi/Tunica-County-MS/Lessadolla-Sowers.1616921.html) > > [http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/14/why-voter-id-should-matter-to-all-americans/](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/02/14/why-voter-id-should-matter-to-all-americans/) > > Or something else? Well, you see, that isn’t quite what you said. Here’s what you said: > [@](#): > > …I have more than one now. They’ve been cited in this thread… But they haven’t. And you didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mentor_and_Liar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1218 "2012-07-10T16:31:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Seems I’m not the only one with memory issues. At least I come by mine honestly, more or less, smoked enough weed to bury an elephant. You? No shit bro, burying that elephant seemed like such a good idea until the pot ran out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1219 "2012-07-10T16:33:15Z")
> [@Mentor\_and\_Liar](#): > > No shit bro, burying that elephant seemed like such a good idea until the pot ran out. Oh, there’s lots more out there. And the elephant is cool about it. Pretty good company, too, except for the farts. He blames the dog. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1220 "2012-07-10T16:34:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The name “Sowers” appears in this thread three times, all of them on this page. Just sayin’, is all. No, I picked her at random when you asked for an example. You’re asking to be reminded of earlier citations about other instances of voter fraud? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15161088&postcount=34](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15161088&postcount=34) Didn’t remember that one? Shocker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=60) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=62)