# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1381 "2012-07-18T17:36:42Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Is there a constitutional requirement for a photo voter ID? No. Who cares? There are plenty of laws which are not constitutionally required. The law against shoplifting is not constitutionally required. It is, like the Voter ID laws, _constitutionally permissible_. Maybe someone nearby can help you with the big words. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > The Brennan Center, like many leftists, is perfectly willing to lie, because it’s for a “good” (i.e., leftist) cause. > > What’s the lie? The use of the word “precedent”? I don’t think the word lie means what you think it means. Precedent is perfectly cromulent. Is it? Really? Unprecedented means “without previous instance; never before known or experienced; unexampled.” Since these laws (with the exception of the first) are NOT without previous instance, ARE before know and experienced, and are NOT unexampled, it’s hard to imagine how the word applies. Oh, wait. I get it. It’s one of those leftist “spirit” arguments, right? The word “unprecedented” has a SPIRIT meaning of… er… “precedented.” That’s it, isn’t it? It’s a penumbra, an emanation. I’d know it if I read the New York Times and Mother Jones regularly, I bet, and had a minor in Cultural Imperialism studies. Am I close? > [@](#): > > I imagine most every ID office is within, say, 60 minutes or so of another office. So what? So the implication that residents of Sauk City could only get IDs on the fifth Wednesday of every month is in fact an untruth. It misleads. Notice the passive voice. So I avoid saying WHO lies, just passively observe that there’s a lie a foot. Hey, you’re a keen analyst. Maybe you should analyze who lied. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1382 "2012-07-18T17:39:14Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Still, you do see a difference between someone starting a green initiative because he think it’s popular and will get more people to vote for him, thus benefiting him politically, and someone making changes to election law to throw obstacles in the way of his opponent’s voters, thus benefiting him politically. Therefore, I also assume you see why the latter leaves a… bad taste in some mouths, especially given the importance of voting in general and in the American mindset. > > ETA: Unless you were saying that the political advantage was to look “tough on voter fraud” or somesuch. If so, I apologize, though I will disagree with what I see as a rosy assumption. Er… actually, when I wrote that, I was thinking of the appeasement of those who wanted Voter ID laws, which I guess is close to “tough on voter fraud.” But I’ll also acknowledge that there are politicians who believe the result of this will be to win elections they otherwise would not because fewer votes are registered for the other side. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1383 "2012-07-18T17:44:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … I look to the basic question: is this, standing alone, a permissible law? As do I. And it isn’t permissible, because it violates equality under the law. If one set of citizens has more difficulty in complying with voter id requirements than another set, they are rendered unequal by law. That is why we hold Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, and literacy tests to be impermissible, they violate equality of voting rights. It wouldn’t be hard to fix it. Outreach programs to ensure every citizen equal opportunity to obtain voter id, with equal convenience? What so hard about that? See any such effort reflected in these laws? Did I miss something? Are such programs written into these laws, fully funded, operators waiting by the phones? And the Brennan Center and the liberal media didn’t tell me? Do let me know, won’t you? Astonish me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1384 "2012-07-18T17:53:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Two responses: first, why not? Second, so what? > > If we accept that voter rights are fundamental and essential, then it follows that protecting those rights are equally fundamental and essential. My son, age ten, wishes to vote. But we won’t let him, because even “fundamental and essential” voting rights can be managed by regulations, as long as the regulation is rational and related to voter qualifications. > [@](#): > > And that government should be wary of any intrusion upon those rights. That government should demand that any such intrusion, hampering, or otherwise infringing upon those rights should be clearly and unavoidably justified\*. Further, if such unavoidable motivations exist, government should make every effort to minimize any effect that infringes upon such an essential right. If I demand that you have picture ID, then of course it must be free, that goes without saying. Equality of voting rights demands it. That’s a lot of “…the government should…” statements. What if I don’t agree with them? What if I say the government should simply pass nondiscriminatory laws that are supported by valid neutral justifications, period? Who breaks the tie? See, we keep coming back to this. You keep announcing these grand standards for what the government should or should not do, as though you were revealing a law of physics. It’s not physics. Maybe the term “political science” has confused you? There is no objective truth here. We have a process by which we make laws. You appear to enjoy that process when it reaches the results you like and discard it when it does not. The logical conclusion of that approach is that you’re advocating for Elucidator I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of the Maritime Territories. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1385 "2012-07-18T17:58:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As do I. And it isn’t permissible, because it violates equality under the law. If one set of citizens has more difficulty in complying with voter id requirements than another set, they are rendered unequal by law. That is why we hold Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, and literacy tests to be impermissible, they violate equality of voting rights. > > It wouldn’t be hard to fix it. Outreach programs to ensure every citizen equal opportunity to obtain voter id, with equal convenience? What so hard about that? See any such effort reflected in these laws? > > Did I miss something? Are such programs written into these laws, fully funded, operators waiting by the phones? And the Brennan Center and the liberal media didn’t tell me? > > Do let me know, won’t you? Astonish me. That’s not what “equality under the law” means. Notice that I am forbidden from sleeping in the East Wing and appointing my own Secretary of State. That’s because the law treats me and Barack Obama differently. The law makes me walk farther to my polling station than my next door neighbor does. He’s a full 75 feet closer than I am, the bastard. Is that unequal treatment under the law? No, it isn’t. That’s a small, permissible burden. Just like Voter ID is. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1386 "2012-07-18T18:03:36Z")
Your son is ten? Try those arguments on him. If he doesn’t instantly point out to you that they are vapid and sophistic, utterly dependent upon carefully rendered semantic distinction, it is likely that he has such respect and affection for his father that he wouldn’t dream of embarrassing you. You needn’t worry. He’ll get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1387 "2012-07-18T18:12:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Your son is ten? Try those arguments on him. If he doesn’t instantly point out to you that they are vapid and sophistic, utterly dependent upon carefully rendered semantic distinction, it is likely that he has such respect and affection for his father that he wouldn’t dream of embarrassing you. > > You needn’t worry. He’ll get over it. In debate, you must identify the particular flaw that an argument has. You may not simply say that it’s vapid, or sophistic, and deem it refuted. So, again: that’s not how “equality under the law” works. You may think it is, but it’s not. [Cite.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_v._Marion_County_Election_Board) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1388 "2012-07-18T18:18:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In debate, you must identify the particular flaw that an argument has. You may not simply say that it’s vapid, or sophistic, and deem it refuted. But sometimes you can try to counter the argument by suggesting that a particular word has some circumscribed meaning, and then throwing out terms like “leftist” and “liar” based solely on that oddly circumscribed meaning. I wouldn’t recommend it though, because it makes you seem like a little whiny bitch. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1389 "2012-07-18T18:38:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …The law makes me walk farther to my polling station than my next door neighbor does. He’s a full 75 feet closer than I am, the bastard. Is that unequal treatment under the law?.. I’m a bit confused here, I cannot decide if this is a deliberate insult or if you genuinely believe that I am this stupid. The only way I would parse this laughable argument would be if I thought you were that stupid. I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1390 "2012-07-18T18:59:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m a bit confused here, I cannot decide if this is a deliberate insult or if you genuinely believe that I am this stupid. Well, **Bricker** doesn’t often use insults, so you can probably take that option off the table. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1391 "2012-07-18T19:01:49Z")
Only when he’s losing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1392 "2012-07-18T22:23:17Z")
> **[Today's Comics Online | Read Comic Strips at GoComics](https://www.gocomics.com/)** > > Welcome to GoComics.com, the world's largest comic strip site for online classic strips like Calvin and Hobbes, Baby Blues, Non Sequitur, Get Fuzzy, Luann, Pearl Before Swine, 9 Chickweed Lane and more! Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1393 "2012-07-18T22:46:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And Sauk City is less than 20 minutes from Madison’s ID office. Gee, I wonder why the Truthy Truth-tellers at Brennan failed to mention that tidbit? Gee whiilikers, **Hentor** how do you suppose they missed that tidbit? Wow, you can run 18 miles in 20 minutes? Hell, I’d be surprised if you could bike 18 miles in 20 minutes. > [@Bricker](#): > > In each case, I don’t look to the motives. I look to the basic question: is this, standing alone, a permissible law? So in short, “I don’t give a damn what is right, I only care that it was implemented through the system legally and constitutionally.” Wow, very rare that someone godwins themselves so well. > [@Bricker](#): > > And the Supreme Court disagree with them. > > Guess who wins? I’ll tell you who doesn’t: the american people. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1394 "2012-07-18T23:12:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > [http://www.gocomics.com/bensargent/2012/07/16](http://www.gocomics.com/bensargent/2012/07/16) > > Heh. I suspect that’s a pretty good likeness of our beloved conselhor. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1395 "2012-07-19T00:48:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > But sometimes you can try to counter the argument by suggesting that a particular word has some circumscribed meaning, and then throwing out terms like “leftist” and “liar” based solely on that oddly circumscribed meaning. > > I wouldn’t recommend it though, because it makes you seem like a little whiny bitch. Suggesting that a word means what the dictionary says it means? Yes, devilishly clever circumlocution, that was. I do appreciate your deep concern for my image, though. Shows you care. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1396 "2012-07-19T00:53:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m a bit confused here, I cannot decide if this is a deliberate insult or if you genuinely believe that I am this stupid. The only way I would parse this laughable argument would be if I thought you were that stupid. I don’t. How about 100 feet? I think you are pretty dim, because evidently you don’t grasp the argument: when does the burden on a voter become unacceptable, and who decides? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1397 "2012-07-19T00:55:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Wow, you can run 18 miles in 20 minutes? Hell, I’d be surprised if you could bike 18 miles in 20 minutes. This being the year 2012, we have vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. > [@](#): > > So in short, “I don’t give a damn what is right, I only care that it was implemented through the system legally and constitutionally.” Wow, very rare that someone godwins themselves so well. q I care what’s right. I refuse to be guided by what YOU think is right, though. ] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1398 "2012-07-19T01:45:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This being the year 2012, we have vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. Yes, because people with no photo ID generally can drive cars. > [@](#): > > I care what’s right. I refuse to be guided by what YOU think is right, though. Yes, but here’s the interesting thing: all you’ve offered as for justification for why what you think is right is right is “it’s not unconstitutional”. Whereas I’ve offered quite a damn lot justification for why I think I’m right. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1399 "2012-07-19T04:47:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How about 100 feet? > > I think you are pretty dim, because evidently you don’t grasp the argument: when does the burden on a voter become unacceptable, and who decides? Oh, piffle. There was no “argument” there, just a rudimentary _reductio ad absurdum_, pretending that my concern with equality before the law conjures up some fantasy about absolute equality imposed. It’s not just bad, its embarrassingly bad, not worthy of a drunken sophomore at a late night bull session. And now you want me to believe that you were offering an argument about the limits of acceptable burdens? Thats what this was about? > [@](#): > > …The law makes me walk farther to my polling station than my next door neighbor does. He’s a full 75 feet closer than I am, the bastard. Is that unequal treatment under the law?.. Gimmee a break. If I’m ever that fucking stupid, I want to be taken off life support. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1400 "2012-07-19T06:31:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gimmee a break. If I’m ever that fucking stupid, I want to be taken off life support. No, it is the difference of opinion between what is an excuse and what is a genuine restriction. Having to travel 100 miles is a damned good example of a restriction, imho. That is unless the task can be accomplished online or by mail at which point it goes back to being an excuse or is just plain irrelevant. The cost of an ID is also an excuse. It isn’t 1000’s of dollars, it is 10’s of dollars (if there is a cost at all). There is no one in the US who can’t raise that sort of money over a multi-year period. Even at the SD there were people willing to help others to get an account when we were pay to post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=71)