# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1421 "2012-07-20T15:20:51Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > We do. It’s a message board. But you knew that. Ohhhh. Well, then it’s a waste of my time to continue the discussion. This board leans so far left that it bears little resemblance to the actual United States. But OK, sure: as far as the authorities of the SDMB are concerned, this measure is illegitimate. Well done, chaps. > [@](#): > > None of us are in positions of power where we can directly control the weighty matters of our time. (Or at least, if any of us are, we don’t here allege to have that power, for fear of being laughed off these boards in disbelief.) So we claim and declaim, we argue and debate (to each their own). Some may learn from these exchanges, even reach new understandings of certain issues. Occasionally minds may be changed, or not, ignorance might be fought, and entertainment is commonly provided. And in the real world, life goes on, and that life includes voter ID laws. I guess if we ever have an election here on the SDMB, though, we won’t have them. That’s fine with me. > [@](#): > > Evidence has been presented that the intention of voter ID laws (as presently constituted) is to reduce voter participation, or the effect will be to reduce voter participation, or both. And that reduction will almost certainly favor the party most strongly working for those laws. In such a context some of us declare the actions of “ID demanding GOP vote suppressors” to be wrong, counter to democratic (small ‘d’) principles, abhorrent, or worse. > > It appears that the evidence compels you to a conclusion, too. > > We (many of us, the pinko-hippie contingent at least) condemn this. We understand how the system works, we know that legislatures have passed these laws, and we are \ cognizant of the rulings of courts of competent jurisdiction. And so we express our ire against those legislatures, and our disappointment in those court rulings. Because we believe that the result is to undermine the very foundation of our democratic process by providing an unfair advantage to one party over another, an advantage that by its very design could be a permanent distortion of the political fabric of this country. And we believe that this should be apparent, and equally disturbing, to any person who holds this country dear. > > But you knew that too. > > And knowing all of this, your best response is “The laws were passed and the courts upheld them. Neener neener!!”. Golf clap for you, buddy. Yep. You and your nutso pals are welcome to proclaim your disturbance all you want. As long as the actual laws remain in place, I am content. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1422 "2012-07-20T15:29:41Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > We do. It’s a message board. But you knew that. > > None of us are in positions of power where we can directly control the weighty matters of our time. (Or at least, if any of us are, we don’t here allege to have that power, for fear of being laughed off these boards in disbelief.) So we claim and declaim, we argue and debate (to each their own). Some may learn from these exchanges, even reach new understandings of certain issues. Occasionally minds may be changed, or not, ignorance might be fought, and entertainment is commonly provided. > > Evidence has been presented that the intention of voter ID laws (as presently constituted) is to reduce voter participation, or the effect will be to reduce voter participation, or both. And that reduction will almost certainly favor the party most strongly working for those laws. In such a context some of us declare the actions of “ID demanding GOP vote suppressors” to be wrong, counter to democratic (small ‘d’) principles, abhorrent, or worse. > > It appears that the evidence compels you to a conclusion, too. > > We (many of us, the pinko-hippie contingent at least) condemn this. We understand how the system works, we know that legislatures have passed these laws, and we are \ cognizant of the rulings of courts of competent jurisdiction. And so we express our ire against those legislatures, and our disappointment in those court rulings. Because we believe that the result is to undermine the very foundation of our democratic process by providing an unfair advantage to one party over another, an advantage that by its very design could be a permanent distortion of the political fabric of this country. And we believe that this should be apparent, and equally disturbing, to any person who holds this country dear. > > But you knew that too. > > And knowing all of this, your best response is “The laws were passed and the courts upheld them. Neener neener!!”. Golf clap for you, buddy. Outstanding post. Voter ID, combined with the Citizens United ruling makes the biggest threat to the democratic process in US history. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1423 "2012-07-20T15:37:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > \ illegitimate Strawman. > [@](#): > > Encarta Dictionary – legitimate: complying with the law, or having official status defined by law I never once denied the ‘legitimacy’ (narrow sense) of these laws. I declared them to be abhorrent. > [@Bricker](#): > > \nutso \your disturbance Nor have I resorted to calling you names or questioning your mental health. Post fail. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1424 "2012-07-20T15:43:44Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Strawman. I never once denied the ‘legitimacy’ (narrow sense) of these laws. I declared them to be abhorrent. But you are not the only person arguing the point. And one of your compatriots DID deny the legitimacy: > [@elucidator](#): > > Yes, they were elected, more’s the pity, and at that point in time, their legitimacy was still more or less intact. Until they made the effort to tilt the electoral playing field in their favor by hindering the voting rights of undesirable voters. At which point their legitimacy vanished. > [@](#): > > Nor have I resorted to calling you names or questioning your mental health. But you are not the only person arguing the point. And some of your compatriots DID call me names. I assume you don’t need a cite? I’m happy to discuss this in a forum where name-calling is not a concern. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1425 "2012-07-20T17:49:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But you are not the only person arguing the point. And one of your compatriots DID deny the legitimacy: > > But you are not the only person arguing the point. And some of your compatriots DID call me names. I assume you don’t need a cite? > > I’m happy to discuss this in a forum where name-calling is not a concern. The word ‘legitimate’ has additional meanings, including ‘_well reasoned and sincere_’ as well as '_complying with recognized rules, standards, or traditions_ (same source). My compatriots may assert that these legislative efforts delegitimize the very legislatures that promulgate them. Or they may not; they can speak for themselves. You do yourself and your cause little service with your constant semantic games. The attempted smoke screen is actually transparent. As for name calling, your statement in its entirety was “You and your nutso pals are welcome to proclaim your disturbance all you want.”. Even if the first five words allow you some wiggle room about the target of your attack (am I nutso, or only my pals?) tell me how else may I parse “your disturbance”? This is clearly a personal attack, one which I in no way deserved as retribution for my own statements. Just sayin’, not that it really matters to me. It just demonstrates once again the moral bankruptcy of your actual position. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1426 "2012-07-20T17:56:01Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Even if the first five words allow you some wiggle room about the target of your attack (am I nutso, or only my pals?) tell me how else may I parse “your disturbance”? This is clearly a personal attack, one which I in no way deserved as retribution for my own statements. You said: > [@](#): > > And we believe that this should be apparent, and equally **disturbing** , to any person who holds this country dear. So you should parse your “disturbance” as my reading your admission that you were disturbed. Well? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1427 "2012-07-20T17:59:47Z")
It’s cute that Bricker is still here wallowing in his shit. Hello Bricker! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1428 "2012-07-20T17:59:59Z")
How do I know when you’re losing? When you lose your temper, and your grip. When you start to try to land knock-out haymakers, without forethought, without clarity. For example, your attack on the integrity of the Brennan Center… > [@](#): > > …The Brennan Center, like many leftists, is perfectly willing to lie, because it’s for a “good” (i.e., leftist) cause. > > And Sauk City is less than 20 minutes from Madison’s ID office. Gee, I wonder why the Truthy Truth-tellers at Brennan failed to mention that tidbit? Gee whiilikers, Hentor how do you suppose they missed that tidbit?.. Look at what a mess that is! You seize upon one factoid nugget like a starving dog on a pork chop! Everybody come see how the leftists lie! Look at this huge lie about how far Point A is from Point B! I’m shocked! Shocked and sickened by this massive falsehood… Well, for starters, even if you were right, it would be micro-potatoes, at most an editing glitch. But worse, it wasn’t wrong, Sauk Center is twenty miles away, and twenty minutes is an entirely reasonable time frame. In fact, it is somewhat generous. In my experience with you, you don’t start to behave like that until you realize you are losing, if you think you’ve got a strong case, you can be quite civil and generous in your condescension. You are not a stupid man, **Bricker** , so when you make really stupid arguments, there’s a reason. And the reason is that you don’t have any smart arguments to offer, no evidence that rise above insinuation, innuendo and anecdote. Hell, even your anecdotes are inconsistent! And finally, nothing else availing, you resort to massive _ad hominem_, we’re all a bunch of lefties, out of touch with _real_ Americans. With a bit of extra focus on yours very truly, me. Hugh Betcha, I’m a lefty, a red-blooded, flag-waving All American radical lefty, and damned proud of it! So fucking what? if you can prove me wrong, do it, if you can’t, start screaming and thrashing about. Or have a nice steaming cuppa STFU. Relax. Take a break, have a cup of chamomile tea. Go watch a baby sleep, gather your _chi_, find your center. Go commit a random and senseless act of generosity and kindness. We’ll be here when you get back. Peace in, peace out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1429 "2012-07-20T18:34:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How do I know when you’re losing? When you lose your temper, and your grip. When you start to try to land knock-out haymakers, without forethought, without clarity. For example, your attack on the integrity of the Brennan Center… > > Look at what a mess that is! You seize upon one factoid nugget like a starving dog on a pork chop! Everybody come see how the leftists lie! Look at this huge lie about how far Point A is from Point B! I’m shocked! Shocked and sickened by this massive falsehood… > > Well, for starters, even if you were right, it would be micro-potatoes, at most an editing glitch. But worse, it wasn’t wrong, Sauk Center is twenty miles away, and twenty minutes is an entirely reasonable time frame. In fact, it is somewhat generous. I think you’re confused. I was the one that said Sauk City was a mere twenty mies away. The Brennan Center only said that the Sauk City ID center was open every fifth Wednesday, the implication being that the other as of the month left Sauk City residents without any reasonable possibility of getting ID. Which you agree with, it seems. So… What have you to say now? > [@](#): > > In my experience with you, you don’t start to behave like that until you realize you are losing, if you think you’ve got a strong case, you can be quite civil and generous in your condescension. I’m tired of doing that. I have a very strong case, behave politely, and the moron patrol takes it as license to heap insult after insult on me. They’re carrion eating little bitches. I am entering a new phase of my life. Evolving, like the President. Only my evolution involves calling carrion eating little bitches out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1430 "2012-07-20T18:37:49Z")
Well, you know, a bit of road kill, lightly sautéed with butter and mushrooms… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1431 "2012-07-20T18:42:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think you’re confused. I was the one that said Sauk City was a mere twenty mies away. The Brennan Center only said that the Sauk City ID center was open every fifth Wednesday, the implication being that the other as of the month left Sauk City residents without any reasonable possibility of getting ID. > > Which you agree with, it seems. > > So… What have you to say now? > > I’m tired of doing that. I have a very strong case, behave politely, and the moron patrol takes it as license to heap insult after insult on me. They’re carrion eating little bitches. I am entering a new phase of my life. Evolving, like the President. Only my evolution involves calling carrion eating little bitches out. You aren’t insulted because you behave politely. You are insulted because you are dishonest and a hypocrite. Also, you don’t have a strong case. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1432 "2012-07-20T18:44:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …So… What have you to say now?.. What I already said. That at most this is a triviality, it occupies the merest part of the Brennan Center report, and apparently is the only part you can seize upon and try to inflate into some form of relevance. I’ve pointed out that your anecdotes about the CASA worker instructing “illegal aliens” is inconsistent in your retelling. Does that mean I have every right to shriek “LIAR! LIAR!” at the top of my lungs? If you fucked that up, does that mean we may assume that everything else you say is false? That being the standard you would have us accept for the Brennan Center report? You cooked your own goose, want some gander sauce? Pretty much the same sauce, actually… ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1433 "2012-07-20T19:07:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well? Shall we all play a Lightning Round of the game of Parse the Multiple Meanings? Well: a deep, deep hole in the earth, like the one your argument has fallen into. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1434 "2012-07-20T19:13:58Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Shall we all play a Lightning Round of the game of Parse the Multiple Meanings? > > Well: a deep, deep hole in the earth, like the one your argument has fallen into. Wait. You said you believed the events are disturbing. I said you were welcome to proclaim your disturbance. This became a personal attack on you. How? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1435 "2012-07-20T19:15:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What I already said. That at most this is a triviality, it occupies the merest part of the Brennan Center report, and apparently is the only part you can seize upon and try to inflate into some form of relevance. > > I’ve pointed out that your anecdotes about the CASA worker instructing “illegal aliens” is inconsistent in your retelling. Does that mean I have every right to shriek “LIAR! LIAR!” at the top of my lungs? If you fucked that up, does that mean we may assume that everything else you say is false? That being the standard you would have us accept for the Brennan Center report? > > You cooked your own goose, want some gander sauce? Pretty much the same sauce, actually… You’re a fucking idiot, who is capable of not being being one but apparently doesn’t like the experience. My retelling was not “inconsistent” in any substantive way. As to the Brennan Center – the point was to show how they misrepresented the plight of Sauk City residents. I grant you that is not a point-by-point refutation of their entire report. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1436 "2012-07-20T19:39:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You’re a fucking idiot, who is capable of not being being one but apparently doesn’t like the experience. > > My retelling was not “inconsistent” in any substantive way. > > As to the Brennan Center – the point was to show how they misrepresented the plight of Sauk City residents. I grant you that is not a point-by-point refutation of their entire report. And not even a refutation of the one point, unless mile-per-minute travel is typical for people with no photo ID. ETA: And such name calling! Yikes! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1437 "2012-07-20T19:52:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …I grant you that is not a point-by-point refutation of their entire report. And when might we expect such? Someone as certain of his facts as you are must be simply engorged with reliable studies. Solid facts, untainted by lefty biases. If you got, you bring, if you ain’t got, you call them liars. So far, best evidence is that you ain’t got. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1438 "2012-07-20T19:55:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And not even a refutation of the one point, unless mile-per-minute travel is typical for people with no photo ID. > > ETA: And such name calling! Yikes! He has nothing left. He’s shown that he’s a complete hypocrite, he’s shown that he is reflexively dishonest, so shrill screaming is all that remains. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1439 "2012-07-20T20:12:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …My retelling was not “inconsistent” in any substantive way… Depends on a very generous and forgiving definition of “substantive”. First quote, from Great Debates [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15112317&highlight=CASA](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15112317&highlight=CASA) Post 226 [QUOTE=Bricker] …I have personally heard a CASA volunteer telling _people_ that they didn’t need papers to vote… [/QUOTE] (emphasis mine) Your second telling: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15254038&highlight=CASA#post15254038](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15254038&highlight=CASA#post15254038) Post 1155 [QUOTE=Bricker] …I have personally heard CASA of Maryland volunteers telling \*illegal aliens \*how easy it is to vote… [/QUOTE] (emphasis mine) See the difference? First example, they are “people”. Second quote, they are “illegal aliens”. In my book, that is a _substantive_ difference. Words have a different meaning in the **Bricker** universe? The difference between “people” and “illegal aliens” isn’t “substantive”? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1440 "2012-07-20T20:19:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Depends on a very generous and forgiving definition of “substantive”. First quote, from Great Debates > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15112317&highlight=CASA](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15112317&highlight=CASA) > Post 226 > (emphasis mine) > > Your second telling: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15254038&highlight=CASA#post15254038](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15254038&highlight=CASA#post15254038) > Post 1155 > (emphasis mine) > > See the difference? First example, they are “people”. Second quote, they are “illegal aliens”. In my book, that is a _substantive_ difference. Words have a different meaning in the **Bricker** universe? The difference between “people” and “illegal aliens” isn’t “substantive”? > > Seriously? Illegal aliens are people, **elucidator**. The two accounts do not contradict one another. One has more information than the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=73)