# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1441 "2012-07-20T20:20:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > He has nothing left. He’s shown that he’s a complete hypocrite, he’s shown that he is reflexively dishonest, so shrill screaming is all that remains. My screaming is deep, and profound. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1442 "2012-07-20T20:21:59Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And not even a refutation of the one point, unless mile-per-minute travel is typical for people with no photo ID. > > ETA: And such name calling! Yikes! Why not? They need a photo ID for a bus? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1443 "2012-07-20T20:25:15Z")
So you’re saying a city bus or private line bus will travel that 20 miles in 20 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1444 "2012-07-20T20:25:51Z")
I saw that bus, the one that goes sixty miles an hour! And if they slowed down, Dennis Hopper would detonate the bomb! Which would kill a bunch of people! Well, illegal aliens. No substantive difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1445 "2012-07-20T20:28:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And when might we expect such? Someone as certain of his facts as you are must be simply engorged with reliable studies. Solid facts, untainted by lefty biases. If you got, you bring, if you ain’t got, you call them liars. So far, best evidence is that you ain’t got. I don’t need to refute even a single one of their points. They make claims, you buy every word, I don’t. Period. When this first thing my eye lights on is a deceptive claim about Sauk City, why should I spend my time refuting any other points? I don’t have to persuade anyone. My side has won the debate. The laws are passed. It took me maybe five minutes to look up Sauk City, find a nearby big town, and get distance and bus line info. All to refute one line. If it’s incumbent on me to kill their whole report that way, I won’t do it. And since I don’t need to, because the debate is over and the laws are passed, then that’s that. Did I mention the part where the laws are already in place? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1446 "2012-07-20T20:29:39Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So you’re saying a city bus or private line bus will travel that 20 miles in 20 minutes? Cut him some slack. He’s never been on a bus, so why would he know how fast they are. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1447 "2012-07-20T20:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > …Did I mention the part where the laws are already in place? Yes, you did, and you have every right to be proud of your party for this fine and worthy effort! But a niggling point: the debate is not whether or not the laws _have been_ passed, but whether they _should_ have been passed. You would be hard pressed to quote anyone saying they had not been passed. Or is that not a substantive difference? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1448 "2012-07-20T20:41:14Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > So you’re saying a city bus or private line bus will travel that 20 miles in 20 minutes? I guess it would depend on where in Sauk City the prospective voter was coming from. I’'ll allow it might go longer than 20 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1449 "2012-07-20T20:42:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > When this first thing my eye lights on is a deceptive claim about Sauk City… Oh? In what way was the claim deceptive? Does the Sauk City facility have different hours than those claimed in the study? Does the fact that other facilities are reachable with some effort by those without photo ID in any way change those hours? In fact, isn’t it your claim that > [@Bricker](#): > > Sauk City is less than 20 minutes from Madison’s ID office the _more_ deceptive claim in this exchange, depending as it does on an applicant’s ability to obtain transportation adequate to that task? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1450 "2012-07-20T20:42:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Yes, you did, and you have every right to be proud of your party for this fine and worthy effort! > > But a niggling point: the debate is not whether or not the laws _have been_ passed, but whether they _should_ have been passed. You would be hard pressed to quote anyone saying they had not been passed. > > Or is that not a substantive difference? Yes, well, the problem with debating “should they have been passed” is that we don’t agree on a common framework for the purpose of laws. This makes it difficult, if not impossible, to agree on whether a given law should exist, since we have a fundamental disconnect about the proper role of government. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1451 "2012-07-20T20:49:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …They make claims, you buy every word, I don’t. Period… Actually, no, no I didn’t. My first reaction was that they were stating the worst case scenario. Which may well be an exaggeration, and my first reaction is that it is. But my reaction is based on reasoning, not on rebuttal of fact, I have no information that they are wrong. My reasoning is that the Pubbies aren’t that ambitious, they wouldn’t try for anything so obvious and blatant. I have little doubt that if they thought they could get away with it, they might try. But there are men and women of conscience within the party, and they would not stand for it. They might both leave, _en masse._ But not you. We’ve already established the extent of your, ah, conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1452 "2012-07-20T20:52:21Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Oh? In what way was the claim deceptive? Does the Sauk City facility have different hours than those claimed in the study? Does the fact that other facilities are reachable with some effort by those without photo ID in any way change those hours? > > In fact, isn’t it your claim that the _more_ deceptive claim in this exchange, depending as it does on an applicant’s ability to obtain transportation adequate to that task? Making the trip in twenty minutes requires a car, a taxi, a shuttle van – nothing exotic. We don’t need to postulate an SR-71 Blackbird on standby. It’s true that if a particular person didn’t have a car, or access to a taxi, then the trip might take longer. Indeed, if a person was wheelchair bound, it might take longer still. A massively obese person confined to his bed would have to add the time necessary to cut the walls open and have the fire department lower him down on a hoist. All these things are true. Still, you know, and I know, that in this day and age, in this country, it’s very customary to refer to distances as such-and-so minutes away, with one mile equal to one minute. If you were a fool, a poltroon, or a snake intent on raising irrelevant objections, then you might not admit to this convention. In which case I’ll just say I averaged the slower bus time with the faster SR-71 Blackbird time to get 20 minutes. Now, what’s deceptive about their claim? Again, a fool, poltroon, or snake might act puzzled at the thought that there’s deception afoot. But any normal, ordinary person reading that claim would first reach the conclusion that Sauk City residents had no real options except to wait for a fifth Wednesday. If we were to survey a hundred regular people, give them that paragraph, and then ask what implications were made, or ask them if they’d be surprised to discover that an ID office existed a mere 20 miles away, they would say they were surprised, and they would say that the implication was Sauk City residents had to wait until the fifth Wednesday. Right? C’mon. You can admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1453 "2012-07-20T21:08:20Z")
Today I learned that Bricker gives terrible directions. Or that he lives in some sort of place where everything is separated by lengths of freeway with no traffic on them. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1454 "2012-07-20T21:14:02Z")
A taxi? Forty miles, round trip, by _taxi_? You any idea what that would cost? Wait, come to think of it, neither do I. Bentley? Bentley? Leave off polishing the silver for a moment, I’ve a question. You’re an ordinary type fellow, yes? Take the occasional taxicab, do you? Suppose I were to send you on a forty mile trip by taxicab, what might that cost? Bentley, dear fellow, you’ve gone quite pale! Do sit down, rest a bit. Not on the _good_ furniture, mind your place!.. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1455 "2012-07-20T21:44:27Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Today I learned that Bricker gives terrible directions. Or that he lives in some sort of place where everything is separated by lengths of freeway with no traffic on them. Sauk City to Madison = State route 12. Speed limit = 65 mph. Well? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1456 "2012-07-20T21:46:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, then it’s a waste of my time to continue the discussion. This board leans so far left that it bears little resemblance to the actual United States. I still find it interesting that people still keep bringing this talking point up, even though poll after poll shows that Americans, while self-identifying as “conservatives”, take the liberal side in almost all the crucial issues in a very extreme way. > [@](#): > > Yep. You and your nutso pals are welcome to proclaim your disturbance all you want. As long as the actual laws remain in place, I am content. BUT YOU JUST FUCKING ADMITTED THAT THEY WERE INTENDED TO MAKE THINGS WORSE! HOW! FUCKING! DISHONEST! CAN! YOU! BE?! Are you completely fucking shameless? > [@Bricker](#): > > As to the Brennan Center – the point was to show how they misrepresented the plight of Sauk City residents. I grant you that is not a point-by-point refutation of their entire report. Except that they didn’t. If you are poor and lack a driver’s license, how are you going to get from Sauk City to Madison? Got a bus line? How long does that take, what does it cost? Can you walk 20 miles in a day? Can you walk 20 miles _at all_? > [@Bricker](#): > > Why not? They need a photo ID for a bus? Is there a bus? What does it cost? How long does it take? How long would it reasonably take a Sauk City resident to get from there to the Madison DMV and get their ID if they have no driver’s license? All day? _Several_ days? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1457 "2012-07-20T21:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > …Speed limit = 65 mph. My bicycle can’t go 65, it starts to shimmy at 50. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1458 "2012-07-20T21:51:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A taxi? Forty miles, round trip, by _taxi_? You any idea what that would cost? Wait, come to think of it, neither do I. > > Bentley? Bentley? Leave off polishing the silver for a moment, I’ve a question. You’re an ordinary type fellow, yes? Take the occasional taxicab, do you? Suppose I were to send you on a forty mile trip by taxicab, what might that cost? Bentley, dear fellow, you’ve gone quite pale! Do sit down, rest a bit. Not on the _good_ furniture, mind your place!.. I’m sure a taxi would be pricey, maybe $80-90. So you take the bus and take a few more minutes at a dramatically reduced price. Or you wait until next month and walk to the local office on Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1459 "2012-07-20T21:52:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My bicycle can’t go 65, it starts to shimmy at 50. Sounds to me like you’re not smart enough to vote. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1460 "2012-07-20T21:53:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Making the trip in twenty minutes requires a car, a taxi, a shuttle van – nothing exotic. We don’t need to postulate an SR-71 Blackbird on standby. > > It’s true that if a particular person didn’t have a car, or access to a taxi, then the trip might take longer. Indeed, if a person was wheelchair bound, it might take longer still. A massively obese person confined to his bed would have to add the time necessary to cut the walls open and have the fire department lower him down on a hoist. All these things are true. Still, you know, and I know, that in this day and age, in this country, it’s very customary to refer to distances as such-and-so minutes away, with one mile equal to one minute. And this is exactly the kind of thing that makes debate with you so frustrating. “…might take longer” hmmm, _might_ take longer, huh? _might_ take **longer**? _ **might** take longer_? Ya think? Without motorized transport the trip might take longer? Care to casually minimize it any further? Then offer extreme exaggerations of causes for some delay, as if anyone offered them as objections. Best case alternative, a bus passes my house and some time (almost certainly in excess of 20 minutes) passes the needed destination. More likely case is some bus runs within walking distance of my house, maybe a block, perhaps half a mile, and the same bus runs to some similar distance from the needed destination. Most likely case is some bus runs somewhere within walking distance of me, then goes to some central depot where, after an interminable wait, I can transfer to a different bus that eventually runs within walking distance of that destination. Return trip is similar. Total expenditure of time and effort rather different than “one mile equal to one minute”. And you characterize this as “…might take longer”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=74)