# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1541 "2012-07-21T19:21:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You don’t like the fact that the rules allow the party in power to act in such a way as to maximise it’s chances of staying in power. Fair enough, you’re basically right not to like it. Where you’re wrong is to whine about it being so unfair, rather than acting to change it. No, many of us don’t like the (obvious to everyone smarter than a tree stump) motivation behind the rules, and the staunch denial of said motivations (i.e. lying sacks of shit, ala **Bricker** ), along with the fact that the end result is fewer people voting. I want everyone to vote, with the absolute minimum burden possible, even if that means those of of my political leanings never attain office ever again. You’ll be hard pressed to find a post of mine indicating otherwise, and I’ve been here a long time. Again, if it was really about preventing voter fraud, voter ID advocates would be fighting tooth and nail to eliminate absentee voting, as it is far easier to commit fraud through that method. They aren’t. If clothy or maggie said that their primary concern was voter fraud, I might even believe them, as they are morons. Bricker and a few other advocates haven’t shown themselves to be morons in the past, therefore they are lying. If you want to claim that you love voter ID laws as it increases your chances of winning, I’ll think you’re being an asshole (which is sometimes true of many people, including myself and people I respect greatly), but at least you won’t be a lying asshole (which is true of a lot fewer of us and of no one that I have any respect for). Two years ago I was forced to lie to my staff about an issue. It bothers me to this day, even though a week later I told my staff the entire scenario, at the risk of losing my job on the spot. I also lost the respect of one of my people who subsequently quit, and I don’t blame her. Some people hate being lying assholes, while others seem to be able to do so with no regrets. I’m happy to fall into the former group. Where do you fall? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1542 "2012-07-21T19:23:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But not cheating! Nosir! Just because something is wrong, doesn’t mean its cheating! So you just be careful there, **Lobohan**! “Baby, I wasn’t cheating on you, I was just wrong-sexing that prostitute!” —Bricker, Emperor of Douchebaggery ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1543 "2012-07-21T19:23:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, its wrong then, but not cheating? Have you been taking semantic parsing lessons from **Bricker**? I’ve learned a great deal from **Bricker** in my time here, but semantic parsing (or understanding English, as I would have referred to it) is a skill I developed some time before joining this board. > [@](#): > > So, if we just call it “wrong” or “unprincipled” or “slimy, underhanded and dishonest”, we pass your muster, so long as we don’t call it “cheating”? Yes, because the first three are statements of opinion, and perfectly valid. The latter is a statement of fact, and false. > [@](#): > > Crucial point, **Steophan** , and we thank you for your participation, here’s your ribbon. I suspect it added more to the debate than you ever have. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1544 "2012-07-21T19:33:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If the rules say that’s allowed, then it’s not cheating. If the rules say they can only do things **Lobohan** says are fair, then I guess it would be cheating. No, I don’t think that is so. Cheating is contravening the fairness of the game. Sometimes a new way to cheat, a specific method or action, is invented that isn’t expressly addressed by the rules. We see this frequently in sports, and certainly we saw it in the financial world not so long ago. People are very good at finding ways to circumvent whatever rules are in place. When this is noticed, and the unfairness becomes obvious, new rules are promulgated. This of course is a reason (one of many reasons) that we still have legislative bodies. All possible laws covering all possible situations have not yet been produced. It’s the difference between a scale, and a scale with the butcher’s thumb on it. If the butcher uses a certified scale “legal for trade” and there is no specific law prohibiting him from placing his thumb, or even his elbow, onto the pan, are his customers fairly served? I think not. In the case under discussion we have new laws (voter ID requirements) that are allowable under the present rules. But they create an unfair outcome. Creating an unfair outcome is cheating even if the present rules do not prohibit these new laws. So the new laws should be evaluated, not merely for their popular support, and not merely for their compliance with present rules. They should also be evaluated for fairness of outcome. And if the outcome is unfair, the new laws should be withdrawn or modified until they are fair. A tangent – posters keep repeating that “10% of people” lack picture ID. That isn’t what the earlier cites said. The figure was that 10% of eligible voters do not have picture ID. It doesn’t include infants, Martians, or other groups comprising major segments of the general population. It says that 10% of adults, presumably otherwise functional adults, people old enough to have jobs, have kids, have responsibilities, and likely otherwise function in society, managed to get to that life stage without photo ID. This is much more significant than “10% of people at large”. And to chime in on the now-much-repeated theme, this hippie liberal is (and has been) perfectly fine with universal photo ID. Bring it on! But bring it on, and achieve it, _before_ requiring possession of such for critical exercises of citizenship like voting. Right now we have other, quite reliable, ways of proving citizenship and these can serve until universal photo ID is realized. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1545 "2012-07-21T20:36:42Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Yes, let’s follow this thought, weasel. I _don’t_ get to decide what the law is, but I do get to argue whether it’s correct, and I do get to lobby for change and write LTE’s and call my congressperson and Senators and bloviate on websites and walk around with other folks outside holding placards with slogans on 'em if I want to. Of course you do, sweetie. Knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1546 "2012-07-21T20:58:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve learned a great deal from **Bricker** in my time here Do I need to mention that this is _incredibly_ scary? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1547 "2012-07-21T21:05:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Ah, Ignorance fought. I thought I had heard that basically everyone had passports. I’m actually trying to find a figure. It’s probably pretty high considering this is a small country, and most people I know seem to like having holidays abroad. However, more important to the comparison (imho) is that there’s no mandatory ID the way many continental European countries require. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1548 "2012-07-21T21:18:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course you do, sweetie. Knock yourself out. I’m pretty sure that **Xeno** , like myself, maintains a strict “dinner and a show” minimum. Sugarpants. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1549 "2012-07-21T21:18:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course you do, sweetie. Knock yourself out. Devastating. Didn’t you used to be somewhat clever? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1550 "2012-07-21T21:21:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m pretty sure that **Xeno** , like myself, maintains a strict “dinner and a show” minimum. Sugarpants. And no “stay overs”. Breakfast isn’t included. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1551 "2012-07-21T23:02:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You keep doing this. It gets squashed, you change the subject, wait for a while, and then do it again. You must believe that everyone who opposes you has the short term memory of a goldfish. > > Indeed, most people do favor voter id laws. So do most of the people who oppose this nasty bit of partisan judo. > > Which polls can you cite that prove that most Americans will approve voter id laws that favor one party over another? I certainly approve of driver’s licenses, to ensure that only qualified people are permitted to drive. Does that mean I would approve of laws that make it more difficult for black people to get drivers licenses? Would I approve of a law that requires a cash bond of $10,000 to get a driver’s license? Of course not, it would be grossly unfair. > > So, one more time, in the faint hope that a lightning bolt of clarity might yet penetrate the dim recesses of your reptile brain stem: not about voter id being good or bad. About using voter id as a partisan political ploy to gain undeserved electoral advantage. > > What is that now, one hundred and ten repetitions? Son, if stubborn were electricity, you could power Chicago just by attaching leads to your ears. Most people don’t think Voter ID laws constitute cheating. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1552 "2012-07-21T23:10:22Z")
[Voter ID laws have deep support](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-c-wilson/public-opinion-on-voter-i_b_1683873.html) even when people are informed that fraud is rare or that eligible voters will be excluded. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1553 "2012-07-21T23:17:04Z")
Thanks **John** , that was very helpful, since the relative popularity of voter ID laws as shown by polling has never been raised in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1554 "2012-07-21T23:20:03Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > And to chime in on the now-much-repeated theme, this hippie liberal is (and has been) perfectly fine with universal photo ID. Bring it on! But bring it on, and achieve it, _before_ requiring possession of such for critical exercises of citizenship like voting. Right now we have other, quite reliable, ways of proving citizenship and these can serve until universal photo ID is realized. Hmmm. No. Get yourself elected to something, or get those who have been elected to something to listen, and maybe I’ll reconsider. Right now, you’re sitting here announcing some bullshit rule before you’ll accept Voter ID? Forget, it, fucko. You are in no position to announce any rules, demand any concessions, or draw any lines in the sand. You, hippie liberal, got nothing, can demand nothing, and are nothing. Sit down and shut up while grown-ups decide how to run the country. You and the rest of the hippie liberals are permitted to sit around and tell each other how wrong we are. Publish an outraged letter in Mother Jones. Maybe I’l read it before I put it at the bottom of the birdcage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1555 "2012-07-21T23:23:13Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Thanks **John** , that was very helpful, since the relative popularity of voter ID laws as shown by polling has never been raised in this thread. Elucidator seems confused on the point. He thinks that as soon as people realize they may cause some sort of political advantage, support will vanish. Elucidator resolves a conflict between reality and ideology by denying reality. Elucidator simply can’t or won’t see that people are well aware of these allegations and no one gives a rats ass. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1556 "2012-07-21T23:25:45Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Thanks **John** , that was very helpful, since the relative popularity of voter ID laws as shown by polling has never been raised in this thread. Someone posted polling numbers showing the popularity of voter ID laws \*even when the polling question specifically tells the respondents that such laws will disenfranchise eligible voters and that voting fraud is rare? \* I didn’t think so, and I do think it adds information to the specific aspect being discussed right now. If you don’t think it does, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1557 "2012-07-21T23:26:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hmmm. > > No. > > Get yourself elected to something, or get those who have been elected to something to listen, and maybe I’ll reconsider. Right now, you’re sitting here announcing some bullshit rule before you’ll accept Voter ID? Forget, it, fucko. You are in no position to announce any rules, demand any concessions, or draw any lines in the sand. > > You, hippie liberal, got nothing, can demand nothing, and are nothing. Sit down and shut up while grown-ups decide how to run the country. You and the rest of the hippie liberals are permitted to sit around and tell each other how wrong we are. Publish an outraged letter in Mother Jones. Maybe I’l read it before I put it at the bottom of the birdcage. Troll. Finally,definitely, round the fucking bend into fuckingworthlessland mothergrabbin’ troll. 'Bye shithead. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1558 "2012-07-21T23:28:07Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Troll. > > Finally,definitely, round the fucking bend into fuckingworthlessland mothergrabbin’ troll. > > 'Bye shithead. Oh, yeah. “Troll” = I really disagree with him. Brilliant. Again, grown ups are running the country. Not you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1559 "2012-07-21T23:29:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Someone posted polling numbers showing the popularity of voter ID laws \*even when the polling question specifically tells the respondents that such laws will disenfranchise eligible voters and that voting fraud is rare? \* I didn’t think so, and I do think it adds information to the specific aspect being discussed right now. If you don’t think it does, too bad. No, he’s another one that rejects reality when it conflicts with his ideology. Pay him no mind; no one else does. No one who matters. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1560 "2012-07-21T23:29:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hmmm. > > No. > > Get yourself elected to something, or get those who have been elected to something to listen, and maybe I’ll reconsider. Right now, you’re sitting here announcing some bullshit rule before you’ll accept Voter ID? Forget, it, fucko. You are in no position to announce any rules, demand any concessions, or draw any lines in the sand. > > You, hippie liberal, got nothing, can demand nothing, and are nothing. Sit down and shut up while grown-ups decide how to run the country. You and the rest of the hippie liberals are permitted to sit around and tell each other how wrong we are. Publish an outraged letter in Mother Jones. Maybe I’l read it before I put it at the bottom of the birdcage. Why are you such an angry, cowardly person, Bricktop? Are you really so afraid of being seen as wrong that you have to resort to such feeble attacks and obfuscations? You’re a hypocrite, Bricker. And an utter failure as a Christian. So what good are you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=79)