# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 79
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1561 "2012-07-21T23:30:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Someone posted polling numbers showing the popularity of voter ID laws \*even when the polling question specifically tells the respondents that such laws will disenfranchise eligible voters and that voting fraud is rare? \* I didn’t think so, and I do think it adds information to the specific aspect being discussed right now. If you don’t think it does, too bad. I don’t think it adds relevance. I don’t think that’s important to _any_ of us who’ve been arguing against such laws, and I think we’ve made that fact pretty damn clear. Hence my sarcasm about the value of this information. If you don’t like arguments by popularity dismissed out of hand, too bad. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1562 "2012-07-21T23:33:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, yeah. “Troll” = I really disagree with him. > > Brilliant. > > Again, grown ups are running the country. Not you. I would like to thank you, Bricker. Keep up the good work, maybe after a few decades of life those who don’t see your POV will learn something. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1563 "2012-07-21T23:34:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Someone posted polling numbers showing the popularity of voter ID laws \*even when the polling question specifically tells the respondents that such laws will disenfranchise eligible voters and that voting fraud is rare? \* I didn’t think so, and I do think it adds information to the specific aspect being discussed right now. If you don’t think it does, too bad. Public opinion was against blacks marrying whites too. The trouble is, that voter ID sounds reasonable to a person who hasn’t bothered to educate themselves on the subject. We are talking about people who have, us. And the elected folks who knew exactly what they were doing. The right has certainly done a wonderful job of misinformation. Even now liars like Bricker seed the idea that ACORN committed voter fraud. Didn’t happen, but liars put the idea into the heads of people who aren’t going to research it. Same thing with Obamacare. People hate it. Unless you ask them about each of the pieces. So your poll isn’t exactly on point. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1564 "2012-07-21T23:35:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, he’s another one that rejects reality when it conflicts with his ideology. Pay him no mind; no one else does. > > No one who matters. There is that great Bricker charm we keep hearing him talk about. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1565 "2012-07-21T23:35:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You keep doing this. It gets squashed, you change the subject, wait for a while, and then do it again. You must believe that everyone who opposes you has the short term memory of a goldfish. > > Indeed, most people do favor voter id laws. So do most of the people who oppose this nasty bit of partisan judo. > > Which polls can you cite that prove that most Americans will approve voter id laws that favor one party over another? I certainly approve of driver’s licenses, to ensure that only qualified people are permitted to drive. Does that mean I would approve of laws that make it more difficult for black people to get drivers licenses? Would I approve of a law that requires a cash bond of $10,000 to get a driver’s license? Of course not, it would be grossly unfair. > > So, one more time, in the faint hope that a lightning bolt of clarity might yet penetrate the dim recesses of your reptile brain stem: not about voter id being good or bad. About using voter id as a partisan political ploy to gain undeserved electoral advantage. > > What is that now, one hundred and ten repetitions? Son, if stubborn were electricity, you could power Chicago just by attaching leads to your ears. No one cares. Whenever I say “Voter ID laws” from here on out, you can assume I mean both the laws themselves and your claim that they are a partisan political ploy to gain undeserved electoral advantage. People are well aware of that claim. They strongly favor the laws anyway. The courts considered that claim. And they said it doesn’t matter. So the only ones still hanging on to that claim are you and the rest of the Little Red Book readers. No one else cares. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1566 "2012-07-21T23:41:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > There is that great Bricker charm we keep hearing him talk about. 😃 No charm in this thread, baby. No, just hard reality. My usual concessions to idiots, explaining and citing everything, have been retired for this thread. There seems to have been an expected social contract that I would never actually force stupid liberals to confront their utter irrelevancy. When I do, the reactions are predictable… hurt, baffled fury. Good. No one who matters agrees with you on this point. Your whining will get you nowhere. The battle is over. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1567 "2012-07-21T23:42:01Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] So the only ones still hanging on to that claim are you and the rest of the Little Red Book readers. No one else cares. [/QUOTE] I care, and I haven’t read the Little Red Book. Bricker, I hate to tell you this, but I don’t think Jesus loves you. I think He thinks you’re worse than any moneychanger whose table He overturned. I think He thinks you are what He was arguing against. And I think He will weep when you burn. Of course, you won’t burn, since none of that shit is real, but you’re still a hypocrite for pretending you care about it. We should focus though. You have failed utterly to support your case, and now all you can do is strut around and say, “It does’t matter if my position is wrong, my side is the one who reaps the benefit.” We can all see it. You’re not fooling anyone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1568 "2012-07-21T23:43:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Public opinion was against blacks marrying whites too. Well, if we were debating in 1966, and someone said that most people don’t like anti-miscengenation laws, then I’d tell them they were wrong, even if I was fine with interracial marriage. I would have been correcting a factual error. > [@](#): > > The trouble is, that voter ID sounds reasonable to a person who hasn’t bothered to educate themselves on the subject. We are talking about people who have, us. And the elected folks who knew exactly what they were doing. Special plead much? > [@](#): > > The right has certainly done a wonderful job of misinformation. Even now liars like Bricker seed the idea that ACORN committed voter fraud. Didn’t happen, but liars put the idea into the heads of people who aren’t going to research it. Same thing with Obamacare. People hate it. Unless you ask them about each of the pieces. Except for the “minor” part about how to pay it. And, btw, that’s exactly what the poll I quoted did-- it broke it down to different parts, and people still favor it. > [@](#): > > So your poll isn’t exactly on point. You’ll be right when posters in this thread stop making claims about what most people support or don’t support. But that keeps popping up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1569 "2012-07-21T23:48:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Public opinion was against blacks marrying whites too. > > The trouble is, that voter ID sounds reasonable to a person who hasn’t bothered to educate themselves on the subject. We are talking about people who have, us. And the elected folks who knew exactly what they were doing. > > The right has certainly done a wonderful job of misinformation. Even now liars like Bricker seed the idea that ACORN committed voter fraud. Didn’t happen, but liars put the idea into the heads of people who aren’t going to research it. Same thing with Obamacare. People hate it. Unless you ask them about each of the pieces. > > So your poll isn’t exactly on point. Kind of like claiming that Sauk City has only one ID office, and it’s only open the fifth Wednesday of every month? It’s true that when the poll asked about favoring Voter ID laws even though they may prevent eligible voters from voting, support dropped. To 69%. From 80%. What is your response? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1570 "2012-07-21T23:49:15Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I don’t think it adds relevance. I don’t think that’s important to _any_ of us who’ve been arguing against such laws, and I think we’ve made that fact pretty damn clear. Hence my sarcasm about the value of this information. > > If you don’t like arguments by popularity dismissed out of hand, too bad. I didn’t post that poll to show that voter ID laws are good. I posted it to counter the claim that if people really understood what they did, then they wouldn’t support them. Read the post immediately before my post. I thought it was clear that I was adding to what **Bricker** was saying to **elucidator** , but maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1571 "2012-07-21T23:52:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No charm in this thread, baby. I know. You’re hardly charismatic. You’re just a bloviating hog with a shiny ego. It’s cool though, takes all kinds. > [@](#): > > No, just hard reality. You believe that a carpenter dead for thousands of years loves you. And you’re talking to me about reality? Fucking child. 😃 > [@](#): > > My usual concessions to idiots, explaining and citing everything, have been retired for this thread. You lost the thread, Bricker. You’ve failed utterly and everyone knows it. The only thing you have left is to crow about how you’re okay with winning through dishonest means. Your parents should be ashamed of what they failed to do in you. Your father risked everything so he could raise a sociopath with delusions of grandeur. Sad. > [@](#): > > There seems to have been an expected social contract that I would never actually force stupid liberals to confront their utter irrelevancy. When I do, the reactions are predictable… hurt, baffled fury. You’re the one who can’t face that you’ve lost the debate, Bricker. That’s why you’re taking the victory lap. But, Emperor Bricker, you don’t have any clothes. > [@](#): > > Good. > > No one who matters agrees with you on this point. Your whining will get you nowhere. The battle is over. Everyone matters, Bricker. Isn’t that what your God-made-flesh would say? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1572 "2012-07-21T23:58:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Kind of like claiming that Sauk City has only one ID office, and it’s only open the fifth Wednesday of every month? I didn’t make that claim, so I don’t know. I do know that you shut the fuck up when you realized that you were being stupid about the directions time. Par for the course on the Bricker-Links. > [@](#): > > It’s true that when the poll asked about favoring Voter ID laws even though they may prevent eligible voters from voting, support dropped. > > To 69%. > > From 80%. > > What is your response? It is a complex problem and if you don’t know the specific arguments against something you may not understand how to make a decision based on it. Voter ID sounds like a great idea. And it is. Although an honest person who understood the issue would require that we get universal ID possession first. This is why we have representatives, or didn’t you know about that part? You can’t expect a person on the street to understand nuance of complex issues. So you elect someone to do the work for you. Voter ID is a good idea, but as it happens you’ll keep thousands of times as many of legitimate voters from voting as you would prevent fraudulent votes. So we need to fix that, with universal ID possession, before we can enact it. If you were honest. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1573 "2012-07-22T00:01:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t post that poll to show that voter ID laws are good. I posted it to counter the claim that if people really understood what they did, then they wouldn’t support them. Read the post immediately before my post. I thought it was clear that I was adding to what **Bricker** was saying to **elucidator** , but maybe not. Did they say that it may keep ten thousand times as many eligible voters from voting as fraudulent voters? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1574 "2012-07-22T00:02:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You lost the thread, Bricker. You’ve failed utterly and everyone knows it. The only thing you have left is to crow about how you’re okay with winning through dishonest means. Who’s judging the debate? The editorial board of the LA Times? To me, victory on this issue means having Voter ID laws in place. As I mentioned before, I am fine with you declaring eternal victory, and my declaring that Voter ID laws are still extant. > [@](#): > > Your parents should be ashamed of what they failed to do in you. Your father risked everything so he could raise a sociopath with delusions of grandeur. Sad.Q My father knew first hand what kind of ruin occurs when leftists are in charge. My first clear memory of understanding was my dad explaining why he didn’t like Ed Muskie. I am confident that he’d agree with my stance here. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1575 "2012-07-22T00:04:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t post that poll to show that voter ID laws are good. I posted it to counter the claim that if people really understood what they did, then they wouldn’t support them. But you cite _doesn’t do that_, **John**. It shows that poll responses can be varied depending on the wording of the question and whatever bits of information or opinion the pollster renders immediately before asking questions on the particular issue. It’s not exactly news that this happens. Political operatives have been using push polls for decades, for instance. But prefacing a poll question with an opinion or even a statement of fact is not the same thing as educating the respondents. > [@](#): > > Read the post immediately before my post. I thought it was clear that I was adding to what **Bricker** was saying to **elucidator** , but maybe not. Yes, I saw that was your intent. And in a thread as acrimonious and as filled with obfuscation as this one, I tried to make my sarcasm pretty gentle. You, after all, haven’t been involved much in the discussion for the last, lo, thousand posts or so, and I thought you were the basic noncombatant who strolled into the fray without much of the recent background. I apologize for offending your delicate nature. I have no problem with your contribution in general Mr. **Mace** , I just don’t think the HuffPo article sheds any light on any area in contention. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1576 "2012-07-22T00:16:23Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > But you cite _doesn’t do that_, **John**. It shows that poll responses can be varied depending on the wording of the question and whatever bits of information or opinion the pollster renders immediately before asking questions on the particular issue. It’s not exactly news that this happens. Political operatives have been using push polls for decades, for instance. But prefacing a poll question with an opinion or even a statement of fact is not the same thing as educating the respondents. The point of that poll is not that opinions vary depending on how the question is asked, but that they doesn’t vary enough to matter. So, like I said, when posters in this thread stop saying things like “if people knew what theses laws really do…”, then I’ll stop posting factual information that proves them wrong. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Did they say that it may keep ten thousand times as many eligible voters from voting as fraudulent voters? No. Probably because we don’t know if that’s true or not. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1577 "2012-07-22T00:27:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The point of that poll is not that opinions vary depending on how the question is asked, but that they doesn’t vary enough to matter. So, like I said, when posters in this thread stop saying things like “if people knew what theses laws really do…”, then I’ll stop posting factual information that proves them wrong. Jeez, let’s lay it out simply **John**. I’m not trying to evade anything here. First, and to repeat myself, the poll doesn’t prove anybody wrong about what an educated population would decide, because it didn’t actually educate anyone, it just presented different viewpoints related to the question. Second, the poll didn’t even deal with the specific proposition from **elucidator** ; that is, it didn’t deal with the question of partisan tomfoolery. Third, an 11% difference in attitude could be huge depending on the specific question and the tightness of the difference between positions. Finally, the 11% difference shown in this poll IS (IMO) pretty significant, given that the single determinant was a bare assertion regarding only one of the two critical problems with voter ID laws and their implementation. (The other being the base partisan advantage intended by the suppressive effect.) ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1578 "2012-07-22T00:51:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hmmm. > > No. > > Get yourself elected to something, or get those who have been elected to something to listen, and maybe I’ll reconsider. Right now, you’re sitting here announcing some bullshit rule before you’ll accept Voter ID? Forget, it, fucko. You are in no position to announce any rules, demand any concessions, or draw any lines in the sand. > > You, hippie liberal, got nothing, can demand nothing, and are nothing. Sit down and shut up while grown-ups decide how to run the country. You and the rest of the hippie liberals are permitted to sit around and tell each other how wrong we are. Publish an outraged letter in Mother Jones. Maybe I’l read it before I put it at the bottom of the birdcage. Gee, Bricks, I love you too! Like a brother, really I do! And it’s great to see that my reasoned contributions to the thread elicit totally batshit responses from you, with invective replacing informational value. Wipe the spittle off your mouth and chill a bit. Have a sip of wine, man, maybe a hit off our bong. You’re really wrapped too tight, dude. Sheesh, what a buzz kill. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1579 "2012-07-22T00:59:57Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > Gee, Bricks, I love you too! Like a brother, really I do! And it’s great to see that my reasoned contributions to the thread elicit totally batshit responses from you, with invective replacing informational value. Wipe the spittle off your mouth and chill a bit. Have a sip of wine, man, maybe a hit off our bong. You’re really wrapped too tight, dude. Sheesh, what a buzz kill. Did you lose your way? I know you aren’t confused enough to think this is GD. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1580 "2012-07-22T01:07:23Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Jeez, let’s lay it out simply **John**. I’m not trying to evade anything here. > > First, and to repeat myself, the poll doesn’t prove anybody wrong about what an educated population would decide, because it didn’t actually educate anyone, it just presented different viewpoints related to the question. That’s how you educate people. By exposing them to different viewpoints. You’re not going to get most people to spend more time than that educating themselves on these laws. > [@](#): > > Second, the poll didn’t even deal with the specific proposition from **elucidator** ; that is, it didn’t deal with the question of partisan tomfoolery. I wasn’t trying to disprove his speculation. He needs to prove it. > [@](#): > > Third, an 11% difference in attitude could be huge depending on the specific question and the tightness of the difference between positions. It could be in some other case, but it isn’t in this case. > [@](#): > > Finally, the 11% difference shown in this poll IS (IMO) pretty significant, given that the single determinant was a bare assertion regarding only one of the two critical problems with voter ID laws and their implementation. (The other being the base partisan advantage intended by the suppressive effect.) If you’e got a better poll, I’d be glad to see it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=78) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=80)