# I Pit the ID-demanding GOP vote-suppressors (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943 "2012-06-12T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1681 "2012-07-23T16:32:34Z")
How long are we going to play this ridiculous game? We bring up cites and data and you pretend they don’t exist. > [@Bricker](#): > > Who is that? At best, I have only heard a prediction that Voter ID laws would make it more likely to win, which was undoubtedly a belief that voter fraud would be elimiated and produce different results. Firstly there is no way to eliminate voter fraud. Ever. It happens now. It’ll happen when Voter ID laws are introduced. Secondly as has been shown over and over again fraudulent votes in the US have absolutely no effect on the outcome of an election. Anyone who believes that removing voter fraud will suddenly swing the results of elections is so ignorant of the actual facts that you might as well be arguing against a brick wall. They obviously don’t care about evidence or facts (or reality) so what’s the point? > [@](#): > > But I am willing to be educated – who was “quite willing” to admit that voter ID laws will reduce voter turnout among certain segments? [Et Voila!](http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/25/12402854-accidental-candor-about-voter-id?lite) > [@](#): > > House Majority Leader Mike Turzai (R-Allegheny) suggested that the House’s end game in passing the Voter ID law was to benefit the GOP politically. > > “Pro-Second Amendment? The Castle Doctrine, it’s done. First pro-life legislation – abortion facility regulations – in 22 years, done.\*\* Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.\*\*” Penn. has voted solidly D since 1992 with a 8% advantage. Do you honestly believe elimination of “voter fraud” is going to swing an election 8%? Do you think Turzai believes that? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1682 "2012-07-23T16:34:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry, but I’m not going to respond to this. > > Some time back, in a discussion of health care laws, Lobohan asked me if there was some point where it would be acceptable for people to die because they could not afford health care. After generally pointing out that there was obviously a point for every health care system that had to confront that issue – do you spend $500,000 a month to keep a ninety-year-old alive? – I said that yes, in my view, it is acceptable for people to die if they cannot afford health care. Actually, friend Bricker, you are either lying or mistaken about that. In that long ago thread Voyager said: > [@Dispelling US Health Care Myths: Part 1](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/245): > > I already said that being more efficient, while still meeting the goal, was better. The case in point here is that having a deficit says nothing at all about whether the program is efficient. Efficiency, to repeat, is a measure of how close you come to the ideal of providing value for minimal cost. Please demonstrate that private insurers come closer to this ideal than Medicare. > > If you go out shopping to buy 20 items, you can measure the efficiency of your shopping by how close you get to the minimal price for your grocery cart. Not buying the milk to save money is not being efficient. > > The real problem with justification is not the cost, but acceptance of the goal. If you don’t accept that it is proper for society to tax its citizens to provide life sustaining healthcare for every person, then the cost is just a sideshow. **I’ve asked several times in this thread if those who believe this think it is acceptable for people to die because they couldn’t afford proper treatment. So far, only the sounds of crickets.** Emphasis mine. You quoted the emphasised section and said: > [@Dispelling US Health Care Myths: Part 1](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/dispelling-us-health-care-myths-part-1/525997/246): > > It is acceptable for people to die because they can’t afford the proper treatment. That was the last thing you said in that thread. There is no context missing, you simply made that post and stopped talking. Why are you saying you’re taken out of context? Why are you misrepresenting the conversation? So which is it? Are you lying or are you mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1683 "2012-07-23T16:37:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They can arrange to get a lift once every four or more years. It is, as I said, trivial. If they had to do it daily or weekly, you’d have a point, but they don’t, so you don’t. > > So, instead of sitting here whinging about it, make sure all these people get ID, which will help their lives overall (and stop pretending it won’t, while we’re at it), and watch your party win by a landslide. This isn’t Mayberry where Goober knows that he can get a lift from Gomer. We’re talking the inner cities where you’ve got people working all kinds of odd hours to keep themselves going. Can they get to a government office across town? Maybe. Except for the hours. Except they may need a birth certificate, which they don’t have. Which requires another trip to another government office. Absolutely, let’s help get them their IDs. It just isn’t going to be as easy as you think nor are there any benefits to them besides voting. What you’re doing is asking one segment of society to make a significant investment in time and money to get something that more affluent people already have just so they can vote, with no other motivation for doing so than to make it so inconvenient that some will give up and not vote, changing the results of elections to those that you want to see. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1684 "2012-07-23T16:45:46Z")
I have a question that I don’t think has been covered. If I understand those opposed to voter ID laws, their reasoning, at least in part, is that it would disproportionately disenfranchise minority voters. The reasoning seems to be that there are a lot of poor minorities, particular Black voters, who are 1) poor and 2) don’t live near cities or towns that may have DMVs where they can get their IDs. My question is, are we sure that people who fit criteria 1 and 2 are predominantly Black, or minorities. I was under the impression that most of the Black population was concentrated in cities, and, generally, the poor White people were more apt to live in the country or remote areas. Basically, inner-city ghettos tend to be Black and trailer parks and struggling farm and mining communities tend to White. I also recall reading more than once, even on these boards, that there are many, many White people on welfare than Black people. That seems to give support to my thought that it seems very possible that voter ID laws might, in fact, rob more votes from a Republicans than Democrats. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1685 "2012-07-23T16:48:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have a question that I don’t think has been covered. If I understand those opposed to voter ID laws, their reasoning, at least in part, is that it would disproportionately disenfranchise minority voters. The reasoning seems to be that there are a lot of poor minorities, particular Black voters, who are 1) poor and 2) don’t live near cities or towns that may have DMVs where they can get their IDs. > > My question is, are we sure that people who fit criteria 1 and 2 are predominantly Black, or minorities. I was under the impression that most of the Black population was concentrated in cities, and, generally, the poor White people were more apt to live in the country or remote areas. Basically, inner-city ghettos tend to be Black and trailer parks and struggling farm and mining communities tend to White. > > I also recall reading more than once, even on these boards, that there are many, many White people on welfare than Black people. That seems to give support to my thought that it seems very possible that voter ID laws might, in fact, rob more votes from a Republicans than Democrats. > > Thoughts? I think you haven’t understood the reasoning of those opposed to Voter ID schemes as well as you pretend to. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1686 "2012-07-23T16:48:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have a question that I don’t think has been covered. If I understand those opposed to voter ID laws, their reasoning, at least in part, is that it would disproportionately disenfranchise minority voters. The reasoning seems to be that there are a lot of poor minorities, particular Black voters, who are 1) poor and 2) don’t live near cities or towns that may have DMVs where they can get their IDs. > > My question is, are we sure that people who fit criteria 1 and 2 are predominantly Black, or minorities. I was under the impression that most of the Black population was concentrated in cities, and, generally, the poor White people were more apt to live in the country or remote areas. Basically, inner-city ghettos tend to be Black and trailer parks and struggling farm and mining communities tend to White. > > I also recall reading more than once, even on these boards, that there are many, many White people on welfare than Black people. That seems to give support to my thought that it seems very possible that voter ID laws might, in fact, rob more votes from a Republicans than Democrats. > > Thoughts? I’ve heard it said that the people most likely to be without IDs are minorities, the young and the elderly (because they may not drive any more). I don’t know the specific numbers and breakdowns, but I’d assume that most rural poor people have a drivers license. Many poor people in cities don’t drive cars. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1687 "2012-07-23T17:14:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > -snip- disenfranchise -snip- Bricker said we’re supposed to call people out whenever they use this word 😉 > [@magellan01](#): > > If I understand those opposed to voter ID laws, their reasoning, at least in part, is that it would disproportionately disenfranchise minority voters. It’s not so much minorities as poor people. Minorities just tend to be disproportionately poor. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1688 "2012-07-23T17:15:51Z")
Why would more minorities in Georgia vote after voter id laws were in place? Maybe because they were pissed off about it? The further question, which we most likely cannot answer, is how many\* more\* of them would have voted if they could have. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1689 "2012-07-23T17:18:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have a question that I don’t think has been covered. If I understand those opposed to voter ID laws, their reasoning, at least in part, is that it would disproportionately disenfranchise minority voters. The reasoning seems to be that there are a lot of poor minorities, particular Black voters, who are 1) poor and 2) don’t live near cities or towns that may have DMVs where they can get their IDs. > > My question is, are we sure that people who fit criteria 1 and 2 are predominantly Black, or minorities. I was under the impression that most of the Black population was concentrated in cities, and, generally, the poor White people were more apt to live in the country or remote areas. Basically, inner-city ghettos tend to be Black and trailer parks and struggling farm and mining communities tend to White. > > I also recall reading more than once, even on these boards, that there are many, many White people on welfare than Black people. That seems to give support to my thought that it seems very possible that voter ID laws might, in fact, rob more votes from a Republicans than Democrats. > > Thoughts? I think the distinction is between urban poor and rural poor. Rural poor are much more likely to have drivers licenses and much more likely to vote Republican. Urban poor very often don’t drive and have no need for photo ID and trend Democratic. Voter ID laws would have little effect on one group and a devastating effect on the other. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1690 "2012-07-23T17:23:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > ,So, instead of sitting here whinging about it, make sure all these people get ID, which will help their lives overall (and stop pretending it won’t, while we’re at it), and watch your party win by a landslide. You think the Republicans will sit idly by and let that happen? Did you notice how in Texas and Florida they rushed to add on extra voter registration restrictions? Did you wonder why? The very first step the left made in that direction, of helping people get their documentation together? How long, do you think, it would be before the Pubbies start screaming “ACORN!!” at the top of their lungs? Measured in microseconds. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1691 "2012-07-23T17:24:48Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I think you haven’t understood the reasoning of those opposed to Voter ID schemes as well as you pretend to. Really? Sounds like he has it about right. Magellan: to answer your question, I guess I’m not sure, but it seems to be something that (a) makes prima facie sense, and (b) no one seems to be disputing. To me at least, the theoretical part of this is more interesting than the practical sense. So if you come up with stats showing that the voters who don’t have IDs and would find it difficult to get IDs in some state that is considering enacting such a law are divided evenly among party lines, my objection to the law would, if not vanish, at least strongly decrease, but I think the generic and theoretical debate about legislatures changing the laws that govern their own election, laws whose actual justification is not what people claim it is, etc., would continue. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1692 "2012-07-23T17:29:42Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > … Voter ID laws would have little effect on one group and a devastating effect on the other. Keep in mind, it need not be “devastating”. It need only trim away enough votes to gain an advantage in close races. I think this was the original strategery of minds vast, cool, and unsympathetic. A smart, sound strategy with oodles of deniability built in, cynicism in its crystalline form. I’m starting to think that the original planners of this have lost control. The inmates have taken control of the asylum, and aren’t taking their Thorazine any more, having switched to meth. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1693 "2012-07-23T17:37:11Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Really? Sounds like he has it about right. Really? You think most of the people negatively affected by voter ID don’t live near cities or towns? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1694 "2012-07-23T17:41:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Really? You think most of the people negatively affected by voter ID don’t live near cities or towns? Hmm, fair point… certainly there’s been a fair bit of discussion of the issue of people who live far from DMVs, but I agree that there’s also a rural poor vs urban poor divide in which case those affected are in fact the ones who live in cities or towns. That said, on a overall level I think that magellan basically grokked what our point was and asked a basically reasonable question. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1695 "2012-07-23T17:45:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Actually, friend Bricker, you are either lying or mistaken about that. Yes, mistaken. In my memory, you were the poster that prompted the statement; I forgot completely Voyager’s involvement. My error. However: > [@](#): > > That was the last thing you said in that thread. There is no context missing, you simply made that post and stopped talking. Why are you saying you’re taken out of context? Why are you misrepresenting the conversation? > > So which is it? Are you lying or are you mistaken? You’ve quoted the context yourself: _ **If you don’t accept that it is proper for society to tax its citizens to provide life sustaining healthcare for every person…** _ I don’t think it’s proper for society to tax its citizen to provide life sustaining health care for _ **every person** _, and I can’t believe you do either. If the cost of the life sustaining health care is huge, the person elderly, and the time that the care could provide is miniscule --the $500,000 for monthly sustainment of a ninety-year-old – then I don’t agree it’s proper. Do you? But somehow, when you quote my response, you never quote the whole question I was replying to. So I agree – I conflated you and Voyager; that was an error. But on the substance of your repetition of what I said, no. You quote that line without quoting the statement I was responding to? Deliberate removal of context. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1696 "2012-07-23T17:50:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Keep in mind, it need not be “devastating”. It need only trim away enough votes to gain an advantage in close races. I think this was the original strategery of minds vast, cool, and unsympathetic. A smart, sound strategy with oodles of deniability built in, cynicism in its crystalline form. > > I’m starting to think that the original planners of this have lost control. The inmates have taken control of the asylum, and aren’t taking their Thorazine any more, having switched to meth. Very good point. Yes, they don’t need to suppress enough votes to cause riots in the street. They just need to suppress enough to serve as a thumb on the scale to get the result they want. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1697 "2012-07-23T17:55:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry, but I’m not going to respond to this. Well, unfortunately, that pretty much ends all possibility of discussion on these lines… I mean, the key disagreement on at least the high-level theoretical part of this discussion (as opposed to nitty gritty about how far people live from DMVs, etc.), is whether a law which was legally passed, is constitutional, enjoys popular support, and has what claims to be a rational basis can in fact be unethical and antidemocratic (since I and others are arguing that these voter ID laws are unethical and antidemocratic, and you’re, at least in part, saying “Well, they’re A and B and C and D, therefore they are ethical and nonantidemocratic”). And I’ve come up with what I think is just a crackerjack counterexample, and feel like I’m all full of, if not “gotcha”, at least “well, Bricker’s going to have to explain his position more fully here or something”, and then, uhh, debate called on account of rain? I might also suggest that if you are espousing a position which, when soundbited, makes you seem horrible and evil, well, that doesn’t mean that position is WRONG but probably means that it’s worth a good bit of consideration. And finally, let’s face it, plenty of people on the SDMB already hate you and bag on you all the time. What difference will it really make if some small subset of them have another quote to attempt to beat you with? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1698 "2012-07-23T18:05:38Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > … Do you honestly believe elimination of “voter fraud” is going to swing an election 8%? Do you think Turzai believes that? Some of them do. The real question is how many, how many buy into the Republican myth that real Americans are totally on their side, and the only reason Obama is in the White House is the massive horde of illegal aliens the Dems funnel into the voting booths. The number of Republicans who believe that isn’t zero. I haven’t the foggiest notion as to how many. Information wise, I’d like to know. Fear and loathing wise, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1699 "2012-07-23T18:23:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Well, unfortunately, that pretty much ends all possibility of discussion on these lines… I mean, the key disagreement on at least the high-level theoretical part of this discussion (as opposed to nitty gritty about how far people live from DMVs, etc.), is whether a law which was legally passed, is constitutional, enjoys popular support, and has what claims to be a rational basis can in fact be unethical and antidemocratic (since I and others are arguing that these voter ID laws are unethical and antidemocratic, and you’re, at least in part, saying “Well, they’re A and B and C and D, therefore they are ethical and nonantidemocratic”). And I’ve come up with what I think is just a crackerjack counterexample, and feel like I’m all full of, if not “gotcha”, at least “well, Bricker’s going to have to explain his position more fully here or something”, and then, uhh, debate called on account of rain? Start a thread in GD, then. If you want a debate. I already agreed that such a law can be unethical. You already didn’t answer my question about whether voting age limits are undemocratic. If they are, we’ve handled the question just fine. > [@](#): > > And finally, let’s face it, plenty of people on the SDMB already hate you and bag on you all the time. What difference will it really make if some small subset of them have another quote to attempt to beat you with? Yes, this is true. My concern is not for those mouth breathers. My concern is a quote like the one Lobohan uses is far more likely to sway a neutral observer, and it’s for the (possibly foolish) hope of swaying neutral observers that I participate in this pigpen. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943/1700 "2012-07-23T18:27:09Z")
Oh, for sure! Heck, its not as if you like to argue, or anything. No, no, stern duty demands, and you soldier on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-id-demanding-gop-vote-suppressors-part-1/624943.md?page=86)