# I pit the idiots who say the Nazis were "Socialists". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568 "2014-08-15T01:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/301 "2018-03-20T23:42:38Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Yes, truly the Nazis were great friends of labor as befits their socialist nature. I mean, sure, they allowed German citizens to own shares of stock in a private corporation which actually [leased](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monowitz_concentration_camp) human beings (_“The SS charged IG Farben three Reichsmarks (RM) per day for unskilled workers, four (RM) per hour for skilled workers, and one and one-half (RM) for children.”_), but I’m sure that was an essentially socialist scheme. It only _sounds_ like the culmination of the worst excesses of capitalism. So is the issue the fact that they used slave labor, or the fact that they allowed citizens to own stock? It can’t be the latter, because I’m pretty sure that socialist governments allow that sort of thing. As for the slave labor part, … we’re talking about people in the concentration camp…their enemies (people they thought of as enemies). Communists killed their enemies and put them into forced labor. That doesn’t mean they were anti-labor. ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/302 "2018-03-20T23:45:48Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > But none of your posts have answered any of my questions. Why would I answer your question What does america being a democratic-republic (with faltering unions) have to do with any of it? I did answer you and I just explained how. ‘What does america being…’ It’s common sense. There is no one form of democratic government, just like there is no one form of union. The fact that they do x, y, z differently doesn’t mean that they aren’t the thing that they claim to be. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/303 "2018-03-21T00:04:31Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > So is the issue the fact that they used slave labor, or the fact that they allowed citizens to own stock? It can’t be the latter, because I’m pretty sure that socialist governments allow that sort of thing. As for the slave labor part, … we’re talking about people in the concentration camp…their enemies (people they thought of as enemies). Communists killed their enemies and put them into forced labor. That doesn’t mean they were anti-labor. Both anyhow were against independent labor unions. In any case I do think that what **Fuji** is pointing out is that in Nazi Germany the corporations remained under the ownership of the big capitalists and they were happy to get slave labor or to help [getting rid of enemies](https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005686) to continue to do [“business”](http://allthatsinteresting.com/major-brands-nazi-collaborators). Just the opposite of what socialism was supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![Plumpudding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Plumpudding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plumpudding)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/304 "2018-03-21T00:04:55Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > I did answer you and I just explained how. ‘What does america being…’ It’s common sense. There is no one form of democratic government, just like there is no one form of union. The fact that they do x, y, z differently doesn’t mean that they aren’t the thing that they claim to be. No you didn’t answer me. You haven’t answered any of my questions. If you do, I’ll continue to humor you. ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/305 "2018-03-21T00:07:48Z")
> [@Plumpudding](#): > > No you didn’t answer me. You haven’t answered any of my questions. If you do, I’ll continue to humor you. I did answer you, and I just provided the answer again in that very comment. Reading helps. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/306 "2018-03-21T00:08:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Both anyhow were against independent labor unions. In any case I do think that what **Fuji** is pointing out is that in Nazi Germany the corporations remained under the ownership of the big capitalists and they were happy to get slave labor or to help [getting rid of enemies](https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005686) to continue to do [“business”](http://allthatsinteresting.com/major-brands-nazi-collaborators). > > Just the opposite of what socialism was supposed to be. Pretty much, thanks. Saves me the bother of a reply! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/307 "2018-03-21T00:12:46Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > Communists killed their enemies and put them into forced labor. That doesn’t mean they were anti-labor. Oh, what the hell. I’ll probably regret getting tangled in this mess, but… Yes, Stalin put his “class enemies” in brutal labor camps. However, what he didn’t do was float an IPO and allow other Soviet citizens the opportunity to purchase a claim on the fruits of their labor. Kind of a big difference between the two systems, there. ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/308 "2018-03-21T00:18:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Both anyhow were against independent labor unions. In any case I do think that what **Fuji** is pointing out is that in Nazi Germany the corporations remained under the ownership of the big capitalists and they were happy to get slave labor or to help [getting rid of enemies](https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005686) to continue to do [“business”](http://allthatsinteresting.com/major-brands-nazi-collaborators). > > Just the opposite of what socialism was supposed to be. What a relief. We have someone who isn’t retarded and actually understands that there is such a thing as an ‘independent trade union’ (which means there is such a thing as a state-controlled trade union). Plump pudding, you could learn from this man/woman. First and foremost, they were operating under the authority of the state. The fact that corporations collaborated with the Nazis does not make them anti-socialist, and does not take away from all of their socialist policies and aspirations (‘Strength Through Joy’). You do realize that there were industries/corporations that the Nazis did nationalize and take over for themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/309 "2018-03-21T00:29:54Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > Oh, what the hell. I’ll probably regret getting tangled in this mess, but… > > Yes, Stalin put his “class enemies” in brutal labor camps. However, what he didn’t do was float an IPO and allow other Soviet citizens the opportunity to purchase a claim on the fruits of their labor. Kind of a big difference between the two systems, there. Right. So, no socialist country in existence today allows for individuals to invest and buy stock in someone’s labor? Forget the emotional aspect of it. That’s the key point right there. And no one said that the Nazis policies were equal to Communist Russia’s. In fact, I don’t recall once even comparing the two. There are major differences between Lenin and Stalin. That doesn’t mean they don’t belong under the same banner. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/310 "2018-03-21T00:38:22Z")
I… …I actually find **Eminent** kind of hot. Check that: I kinda find the idea of hate-fucking **Eminent** kind of hot. . ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/311 "2018-03-21T00:41:03Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I… > > …I actually find **Eminent** kind of hot. > > Check that: I kinda find the idea of hate-fucking **Eminent** kind of hot. > . This conflicts with social justice warrior sensibilities and the MeToo movement. If you’re going to be a modern leftist, you have to follow the rules. It’s not an a la carte system. ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/312 "2018-03-21T00:42:25Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I… > > …I actually find **Eminent** kind of hot. > > Check that: I kinda find the idea of hate-fucking **Eminent** kind of hot. > . Points for the homoerotic fantasy, though. It’s the rape-y vibe that sets you back. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/313 "2018-03-21T00:44:12Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > This conflicts with social justice warrior sensibilities and the MeToo movement. If you’re going to be a modern leftist, you have to follow the rules. It’s not an a la carte system. The less sense you make, the more shameful my pants feel. Tease. . ---
**Author:** ![Eminent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Eminent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eminent)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/314 "2018-03-21T00:45:34Z")
> [@andros](#): > > The less sense you make, the more shameful my pants feel. Tease. > . It was very sensible and easy to understand. It was practically spoon-fed to you. You’re out of luck. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/315 "2018-03-21T01:03:43Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > I did answer you and I just explained how. ‘What does america being…’ It’s common sense. There is no one form of democratic government, just like there is no one form of union. The fact that they do x, y, z differently doesn’t mean that they aren’t the thing that they claim to be. Your foot is bleeding. You might want to see a doctor about having the bullet taken out. Statements like this push the boundaries of the definition of socialism so far out that the term becomes all but meaningless. In your first post in this thread, you alleged that Goebbels expressed approval for FDRs economic strategy, thus, I guess, implying some sort of guilt-by-association – but the lion’s share of historians feel that FDR did what needed to be done and did not go slaughtering innocents in his own country. What I am saying is that if you were to actually succeed in categorizing Hitler as a Socialist, it would be of no consequence, because, in order to do so, you would have to so severely dilute the word that no meaningful association could be drawn between the nazis and, say, the American SWP. More importantly, most actual modern Leftists in the US have dynamic ideology: they may approve of _some of_ the policies of Stalin, Castro and Gorbachev while rejecting others. It is not a package that one must accept _in toto_. Hence, if you want to tar the Left in this way, you will have to use a brush so incredibly broad that you will not be able to apply enough tar to its vastness to effect any kind of meaningful result upon any individual. Your ideology may demand strict adherence to all of its tenets for you to be called – whatever-the-fuck-you-are, but many competing ideologies view that kind of stricture to be a flaw rather than an asset. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/316 "2018-03-21T01:36:26Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > What a relief. We have someone who isn’t retarded and actually understands that there is such a thing as an ‘independent trade union’ (which means there is such a thing as a state-controlled trade union). > > Plump pudding, you could learn from this man/woman. This man is teaching you that you are a big time ignorant. BTW I’m a Salvadoran-American that learned the history of WWII and other subjects before you were born. > [@Eminent](#): > > First and foremost, they were operating under the authority of the state. The fact that corporations collaborated with the Nazis does not make them anti-socialist, and does not take away from all of their socialist policies and aspirations (‘Strength Through Joy’). You do realize that there were industries/corporations that the Nazis did nationalize and take over for themselves? Not enough for others to notice that in general the Nazis preferred to give industries back to private hands. > **[Nazi Privatization in 1930 Germany - EHR | PDF](https://www.scribd.com/document/183863574/Economic-History-review-EHR-pdf)** > > The document discusses Nazi Germany's privatization policies in the mid-1930s, which went against the mainstream trends in other western countries at the time. In the early 1930s, the German state nationalized several large industrial and banking... > [@](#): > > It is a fact that the government of the Nazi Party sold off public ownership in several State-owned firms in the mid-1930s. These firms belonged to a wide range of sectors: steel, mining, banking, local public utilities, shipyards, ship-lines, railways, etc. > > In addition, the delivery of some public services that were produced by government prior to the 1930s, especially social and labor-related services, was transferred to the private sector, mainly to organizations within the party. In the 1930s and 1940s, many academic analyses of Nazi economic policy discussed privatization in Germany (e.g. Poole, 1939; Guillebaud, 1939; Stolper, 1940; Sweezy, 1941; Merlin, 1943; Neumann, 1942, 1944; Nathan, 1944a; Schweitzer, 1946; Lurie,1947). > > Most of the enterprises transferred to the private sector at the Federal level had come into public hands in response to the economic consequences of the Great Depression. Many scholars have pointed out that the Great Depression spurred State ownership in Western capitalist countries (e.g. Aharoni, 1986, pp. 72 and ff.; Clifton, Comín and Díaz Fuentes, 2003, p. 16; Megginson, 2005, pp. 9-10), and Germany was no exception. > > But Germany was alone in developing a policy of privatization in the 1930s. Therefore a central question remains: Why did the Nazi regime depart from the mainstream policies regarding State ownership of firms? Why did Germany’s government transfer firms and public functions to the private sector while the other Western countries did not? Answering these questions requires an analysis of the objectives of Nazi privatization. While some of the analyses in the 1930s and 1940s are valuable, their authors lacked the theories, concepts and tools available to us today. The recent economic literature has shown the multiplicity of objectives usually targeted by privatization policies (Vickers and Yarrow, 1988, 1991) and the general and widespread priority of financial objectives within the larger framework of multiple and coexisting objectives (Yarrow, 1999). In addition, modern theoretical developments have provided valuable insights into the motives of politicians choosing between public ownership and privatization (Shleifer and Vishny, 1994) and the consequences of each option for political rent seeking, through either excess employment or corruption and financial support (Hart, Shleifer and Vishny, 1997). Also, the theoretical literature has provided interesting results concerning the use of privatization to obtain political support (Perotti, 1995; Biais and Perotti, 2002). > [@](#): > > Hitler did not want to frighten the economy. Consequently, the new regime tried hard to break down business mistrust (Hayes, 1987, p. 33). > > Once the Nazis came to power, it did not take long for the government to produce official statements against nationalization. In 12 February 1933, Mr. Bang, an important advisor in the team of the State Secretary of Public Economics, Alfred Hugenberg, publicly stated that “The policy of nationalization pursued in the last years will be stopped. The state owned enterprises will be transformed again into private firms.” 36 > > It is worth noting that Hugenberg was not a member of the Nazi Party. In fact, most of the members of the Hitler’s first cabinets were not Nazis. Indeed, these cabinet members were representative of the conventional right wing parties (before they were suppressed in July 1933) and had strong ties with German industrialists. No doubt, the paradigmatic example of the non-Nazi policymaker with business connections was Hjalmar Schacht, head of the Reichsbank and Minister of Economy. Schacht was considered the ‘economic fuehrer’ 37 in the first Hitler governments. > > Commenting on his own position in the government, Schacht (1949, p. 78) recalled that “Inside the party there was a strong movement to bring more and more industries into the hands of the state…Private insurance companies were particularly conscious of this threat and they approached me to secure my intervention with Hitler in the matter…Here, too, my intervention was successful.” It is clear that Schacht’s power was based on a warranty given by Hitler to the big business community of friendly economic policies and governmental attitudes towards big business interests. It is likely that privatization – as a policy favorable to private property – was used as a tool for fostering the alliance between Nazi government and industrialists. > > The government sought to win support for its policies from big business, even though most industrialists had been reluctant to support the Nazi party before it took power. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/317 "2018-03-21T01:40:08Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Your foot is bleeding. You might want to see a doctor about having the bullet taken out. > > … That bullet ricochet off his head, it wasn’t his shooting. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/318 "2018-03-21T01:46:16Z")
> [@Eminent](#): > > This conflicts with social justice warrior sensibilities and the MeToo movement. If you’re going to be a modern leftist, you have to follow the rules. It’s not an a la carte system. Not to hijack my own thread here but the terms “social justice warrior” and “virtue signaling” are nothing less than attempts to stigmatize decency. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/319 "2018-03-21T13:44:48Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Not to hijack my own thread here but the terms “social justice warrior” and “virtue signaling” are nothing less than attempts to stigmatize decency. And twisted sexual fantasy. . ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/320 "2018-03-21T15:15:46Z")
Maybe its just me, but when I think of the evils of the Nazi regime they’re economic policies isn’t the first thing that comes to mind. I guess other people may feel differently, some of some of whom are very fine people. There was violence on both sides of Kristallnacht, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568.md?page=17)