# I pit the idiots who say the Nazis were "Socialists". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568 "2014-08-15T01:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/41 "2014-08-16T00:04:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Please, allow for a little bit of nuance in your arguments. It’s true that the Christian Democratic Party has more in common with American liberalism than American conservatism, but like most political parties there are factions inside parties, plus smaller parties, and the “extremists” in most of those right-wing parties won’t lead Germany to Nazism. They’ll lead Germany to the dreaded “Americanism”. Oh the horror! So, you’re admitting that the members of the German right who mesh with the American right, are, by German standards, extremist? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/42 "2014-08-16T00:04:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Please, allow for a little bit of nuance in your arguments. It’s true that the Christian Democratic Party has more in common with American liberalism than American conservatism, but like most political parties there are factions inside parties, plus smaller parties, and the “extremists” in most of those right-wing parties won’t lead Germany to Nazism. They’ll lead Germany to the dreaded “Americanism”. Oh the horror! None of them want to get rid of the health care system they have. So, you are wrong by taking that alone into account. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/43 "2014-08-16T00:06:30Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > So, you’re admitting that the members of the German right who mesh with the American right, are, by German standards, extremist? I guess, but if their ideas were taken to their logical extreme, the end result would look nothing like Nazism. Whereas with the extreme ideas of the left, all that stands between the country and fascism is whether the top socialist is honest or not. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/44 "2014-08-16T00:07:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > None of them want to get rid of the health care system they have. So, you are wrong by taking that alone into account. Neither did the Nazis. They’ve had the basic outlines of that system since Bismarck. So by your logic, the Nazis weren’t extremists because they supported the German health care system. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/45 "2014-08-16T00:13:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I guess, but if their ideas were taken to their logical extreme, the end result would look nothing like Nazism. > > Whereas with the extreme ideas of the left, all that stands between the country and fascism is whether the top socialist is honest or not. Wrong too, the extreme left is not interested in allowing private enterprise to remain in place. As The Encyclopedia Britannica defines it: > [@](#): > > Although fascist parties and movements differed significantly from each other, they had many characteristics in common, including extreme militaristic nationalism, contempt for electoral democracy and political and cultural liberalism, **a belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites** , and the desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in which individual interests would be subordinated to the good of the nation. At the end of World War II, the major European fascist parties were broken up, and in some countries (such as Italy and West Germany) they were officially banned. **Beginning in the late 1940s, however, many fascist-oriented parties and movements were founded in Europe as well as in Latin America and South Africa.** As I found out, there is nothing liberal about those parties or movements. And many right wingers in the USA supported them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/46 "2014-08-16T00:14:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I guess, but if their ideas were taken to their logical extreme, the end result would look nothing like Nazism. > > Whereas with the extreme ideas of the left, all that stands between the country and fascism is whether the top socialist is honest or not. This makes no sense whatsoever. None. You’re fucking nuts. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/47 "2014-08-16T00:17:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Neither did the Nazis. They’ve had the basic outlines of that system since Bismarck. So by your logic, the Nazis weren’t extremists because they supported the German health care system. You do have trouble following context too uh? The point was not that one, the point was in relation to your sorry idea that the right wing parties in Germany are looking to make Germany more like the America pictured by your sorry right wing brethren. Since the Nazis are no longer here the point stands, the right wing in Germany is more like the Democrats in the USA. your stupid attempt at shooting down my point is even more dumb. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/48 "2014-08-16T00:17:32Z")
Mussolini was not without his left-wing support either. To the extent rightists supported fascism, it was a a bulwark against communism, not an endorsement of their economic or social ideas. My point about socialism is that once you let someone take control of the country, put all power in one man or a group of men, whether you are fascist or socialist or communist really isn’t within the control of the original supporters of the party. It all depends on the whims of the leadership. Any party that seeks greater government power potentially leads us down a dangerous road, and where the road leads is not as controllable by the activists as they like to think. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/49 "2014-08-16T00:18:37Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > This makes no sense whatsoever. None. You’re fucking nuts. Since you don’t understand, just stick with this: totalitarianism bad. Freedom good. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/50 "2014-08-16T00:20:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You do have trouble following context too uh? The point was not that one, the point was in relation to your sorry idea that the right wing parties in Germany are looking to make Germany more like the America pictured by your sorry right wing brethren. > > Since the Nazis are no longer here your stupid attempt at shooting down my point is even more dumb. America today has a system not unlike German health care(closer to the Swiss version actually). So nowadays, yes, the more extreme German right would like to make Germany more like America. The extreme German left, however, they fancy turning Germany back into East Germany, but in reality they can’t control that. My point which Frank totally missed is that entrusting rule to a small group of men doesn’t get you to socialism unless you can trust those men. Which you can’t, so you could just as easily get fascism. And only the extreme left entrusts rule to a small group of men in the government. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/51 "2014-08-16T00:25:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since you don’t understand, just stick with this: totalitarianism bad. Freedom good. You’re a fucking moron, you dipshit. Please specify the equivalent positions between the rightist ruling political party in Germany and the rightist opposition party in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/52 "2014-08-16T00:31:21Z")
I never said “rightist ruling party”, unless you define the the Christian Democrats as “extreme right”. What I did say is that there are right-wing parties in Germany that are much futher to the right, and for the most part, they are for LESS government, not more. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/53 "2014-08-16T00:33:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Mussolini was not without his left-wing support either. To the extent rightists supported fascism, it was a a bulwark against communism, not an endorsement of their economic or social ideas. You seem to still wanting to ignore history, those left wingers ended like the left wingers in Germany. > [@adaher](#): > > My point about socialism is that once you let someone take control of the country, put all power in one man or a group of men, whether you are fascist or socialist or communist really isn’t within the control of the original supporters of the party. It all depends on the whims of the leadership. Any party that seeks greater government power potentially leads us down a dangerous road, and where the road leads is not as controllable by the activists as they like to think. Things is Captain Obvious that the issue here is the dumbness of the ones from the right that resort to what amounts to hate speech to describe their political foes. There is no one also among the Democrats that will take control of the country, so that point stands. The main point of the OP also stands, the socialist part is mentioned nowadays with the intention to discredit the ones that looked at more humane systems. The ugliness of this attempt at discrediting the socialists is clearer when one takes into account that many socialists gave their lives opposing Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/54 "2014-08-16T00:41:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I never said “rightist ruling party”, unless you define the the Christian Democrats as “extreme right”. What the fuck is wrong with you? You can’t even maintain your own standards. You claimed that factions within the party proved your point. You can’t prove that. You’re running around in circles trying to show that the conservative political parties in Europe are Republicans. You’re fucking nuts. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/55 "2014-08-16T00:44:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > America today has a system not unlike German health care(closer to the Swiss version actually). So nowadays, yes, the more extreme German right would like to make Germany more like America. You are really an ignoramus. The system the Swiss have is more close to Obamacare. > **[Health Insurance: Switzerland Has Its Own Kind of Obamacare -- and Loves It](https://nation.time.com/2012/08/16/health-insurance-switzerland-has-its-own-kind-of-obamacare-and-loves-it/)** > > The country requires everyone to purchase health insurance but it appears to work efficiently while keeping costs under control If the extreme right is proposing becoming more like America they are too late. It is clear that you are deluded into thinking that they are looking to dismantle it. The 51 or so votes from the Republicans attempting to dismantle it in the USA shows that you are also deluded in other subjects too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/56 "2014-08-16T00:51:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since you don’t understand, just stick with this: totalitarianism bad. Freedom good. Other options many. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/57 "2014-08-16T03:12:57Z")
Some things actually are black and white. That isn’t. I’ve never really understood the use of trying to figure out whether a totalitarian system is right or left. Most of the time it has elements of both, just like democratic governments have elements of both. The more important principle is that freedom is good, totalitarianism is bad. Any any ideology that calls for a powerful government is bad. I’m not talking powerful in terms of what European social democrat parties support, but power in terms of what Hugo Chavez would support at minimum. As long as a party is committed to an open society, a free market economy, and government that is limited, even if minimally so, then we’re well in the range of what constitutes a democratic party. Once we start getting to overthrowing of subverting the system to radically remake society, we’re getting into totalitarianism, even if that isn’t the intent of many of the supporters of the party. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/58 "2014-08-16T15:28:40Z")
What bothers me most is that this is just another example of idiots repeating the words of liars. It undermines the actual knowledge base. And knowledge of what constitutes a fascist is something pretty valuable to have in order to head them off in the future. Because they can pop up anywhere the ground is fertile for that sort of thing. Here’s one quote I found on the subject: Goebbels, 1937: “Had there been some political advantage to it, we might’ve called ourselves national turnips. We are a party of the hard right, and always have been.” Pretty much spells it out, doesn’t it. Now, I’m loathe to cite the father of the big lie in support of any argument, but I’ll make an exception when the quote is one in which a liar exposes himself as same. Now as far as people looking at methodology of dictatorship as some kind of a litmus test for left, right or whatever, I would say that the tactics of the police state are pretty much a given, whether such state of the left or of the right or theocratic or really anything. It is a case of form following function. The use of police state methodology does not make fascists communists any more than similar body structure makes porpoises sharks. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/59 "2014-08-16T18:32:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since you don’t understand, just stick with this: totalitarianism bad. Freedom good. I agree with this. I do however have a problem with the libertarian paradigm which seems based on the premise that government is the sole source of totalitarianism. This model is simple and it does lead to a simple solution: if government is the only thing in the world that causes problems, then the solution to all problems if less government. But I disagree with the premise. I feel there are numerous examples of people oppressing each other without any governmental authority to back them up. So you can have a totalitarian situation without a government. Think of an antebellum plantation as the model for this: a setting where one person literally owned the other people around him and had absolute power of them. So I don’t want a system that sees government as the enemy. I want a system that sees oppression as the enemy. I want a system that fights oppression from all sources - government oppression and private oppression. Libertarians want a government that’s too weak to threaten their freedom. My problem with that is any government that’s too weak to threaten my freedom is also too weak to defend my freedom. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/60 "2014-08-17T00:29:58Z")
[George Orwell writing in 1941:](http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_saw) > [@](#): > > Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and – this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathize with Fascism – generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere _efficiency_ of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen. > > But the idea underlying Fascism is irreconcilably different from that which underlies Socialism. Socialism aims, ultimately, at a world-state of free and equal human beings. It takes the equality of human rights for granted. Nazism assumes just the opposite. The driving force behind the Nazi movement is the belief in human inequality, the superiority of Germans to all other races, the right of Germany to rule the world. Outside the German Reich it does not recognize any obligations. Eminent Nazi professors have ‘proved’ over and over again that only nordic man is fully human, have even mooted the idea that non-nordic peoples (such as ourselves) can interbreed with gorillas! Therefore, while a species of war-Socialism exists within the German state, its attitude towards conquered nations is frankly that of an exploiter. The function of the Czechs, Poles, French, etc. is simply to produce such goods as Germany may need, and get in return just as little as will keep them from open rebellion. If we are conquered, our job will probably be to manufacture weapons for Hitler’s forthcoming wars with Russia and America. The Nazis aim, in effect, at setting up a kind of caste system, with four main castes corresponding rather closely to those of the Hindu religion. At the top comes the Nazi party, second come the mass of the German people, third come the conquered European populations. Fourth and last are to come the coloured peoples, the ‘semi-apes’ as Hitler calls them, who are to be reduced quite openly to slavery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568.md?page=4)