# I pit the idiots who say the Nazis were "Socialists". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568 "2014-08-15T01:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JEngelman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e79b87/32.png) [@JEngelman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JEngelman)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/81 "2014-08-18T00:15:53Z")
The difference between National Socialism and real socialism is that most Germans who were rich before the Nazi takeover remained rich. When Social Democrats take over rich people get higher taxes. When Communists take over rich people lose everything. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/82 "2014-08-18T00:45:03Z")
Middle class does too. They are usually the first ones up against the wall. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/83 "2014-08-18T15:15:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Sure. It’s inadvisable in a modern, 21st century democracy to go back to the days where the government wasn’t even allowed to build roads and there was no social safety net at all. I’m curious as to when you think the government wasn’t “allowed” to build roads. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/84 "2014-08-18T15:19:58Z")
> [@JEngelman](#): > > The difference between National Socialism and real socialism is that most Germans who were rich before the Nazi takeover remained rich. When Social Democrats take over rich people get higher taxes. When Communists take over rich people lose everything. No the history of socialism before communism shows that the traditionally rich aristocracy used socialism to maintain the status quo against insurgent (classically) liberal movements. Therefore rich people turning Nazi was absolutely in line with the socialist historical narrative. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/85 "2014-08-18T16:02:48Z")
Sorry but I’m about to get my Brainglutton on real quick > [@](#): > > Spengler > In 1919, Oswald Spengler in the book Preussentum und Sozialismus (“Prussiandom and Socialism”) traced German socialism to 1914 during WW I, which united the Germany in a struggle that he said was based on socialistic Prussian characteristics, including creativity, discipline, concern for the greater good, productivity, and self-sacrifice.[40] Spengler said that these socialistic Prussian qualities were present across Germany and that the merger of German nationalism with this form of socialism while resisting Marxist and internationalist socialism would be in the interests of Germany.[41] > > Spengler condemned English liberalism and English parliamentarianism while advocating a national socialism that was free from Marxism that would connect the individual to the state through Corporatism.[42] He opposed Marxism for having developed its socialism from an English perspective, while not understanding Germans’ socialist nature.[43] Spengler said that Marxism sought to train the proletariat to “expropriate the expropriator”, the capitalist, and then to let them live a life of leisure on this expropriation.[43] He concluded that “Marxism is the capitalism of the working class” and not true socialism.[43] > > Spengler described socialism, stating “The meaning of socialism is that life is controlled not by the opposition between rich and poor, but by the rank that achievement and talent bestow. That is our freedom, freedom from the economic despotism of the individual.”[44] > > Spengler’s “Prussian socialism” was popular among the German political right, especially the revolutionary right who had distanced themselves from traditional conservatism.[41] His notions of Prussian socialism influenced Nazism and the Conservative Revolutionary movement.[44] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/86 "2014-08-18T20:34:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What the Nazis were more famous in Germany was to go back on the nationalizations made during the Weimar era like the banks and privatize them again. Yeah, IIRC there were a **few** Nazis that thought that was not a socialist thing to do, but Hitler had a “friendly” chat with them. One thing the Nazis did essentially nationalize was the labor movement. All independent unions were abolished and their members had to join a government-run union, the Deutsche Arbeitsfront (German Labor Front). Which meant the government negotiated all worker contracts and workers couldn’t go on strike without government permission. (And as a bonus, the Nazis confiscated all the money owned by the unions when they abolished them.) Naturally the leaders of this union were appointed by the government not chosen by the workers themselves. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/87 "2014-08-19T09:44:55Z")
This also occurred in Communist countries. You’ll find very little that happened in Hitler’s Germany that didn’t also happen in Stalin’s Soviet Union. If calling Stalin a right-wing fascist makes liberals feel better, that’s fine. It could be argued that this is precisely what he was, especially given how he resorted to nationalist appeals during and after the war. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/88 "2014-08-19T12:03:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > This also occurred in Communist countries. You’ll find very little that happened in Hitler’s Germany that didn’t also happen in Stalin’s Soviet Union. If calling Stalin a right-wing fascist makes liberals feel better, that’s fine. It could be argued that this is precisely what he was, especially given how he resorted to nationalist appeals during and after the war. No, Stalin and the other communist dictators were examples of left-wing extremism. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/89 "2014-08-19T12:28:01Z")
But don’t they end up pretty much in the same place, with quibbling over who technically owned the industries? I’d also note that whether a dictator is right or left wing, they sure seem to become richer than Bill Gates in short order. It’s good work if you can get it I guess. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/90 "2014-08-19T13:34:01Z")
There are more types of socialism than communism and today’s democratic socialism. The Nazis were heavily influenced by socialist thought. Saying the Nazis weren’t socialist shows ignorance of the history of Metternich’s brand of socialism. These deniers are also heavily influenced by public education which maintains that socialism is an ideal “humanitarian” system while at times impractical. Nazism is obviously not humanitarian, so associating public school alumni’s fluffy vision of socialism with nazism causes them to twitch uncontrollably and start pit threads. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/91 "2014-08-19T15:06:04Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There are more types of socialism than communism and today’s democratic socialism. The Nazis were heavily influenced by socialist thought. Saying the Nazis weren’t socialist shows ignorance of the history of Metternich’s brand of socialism. These deniers are also heavily influenced by public education which maintains that socialism is an ideal “humanitarian” system while at times impractical. Nazism is obviously not humanitarian, so associating public school alumni’s fluffy vision of socialism with nazism causes them to twitch uncontrollably and start pit threads. Nope, the problem here is that you think that finding a definition that a German posted that fit the wishes of the powerful in Germany is the definition that should be accepted everywhere and in Germany too. The definition does exist (meaning that your accusation of denying it is really silly), but it is not the one that all the world takes into account and virtually none uses now. More to the point it still does not explain or continues to \*\*deny \*\*why it was that plain socialists did oppose the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/92 "2014-08-19T15:09:53Z")
Socialists also opposed the Communists. At least the smart ones. The dumb ones were later killed by the Communists when they took power. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/93 "2014-08-19T15:26:07Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Socialists also opposed the Communists. At least the smart ones. The dumb ones were later killed by the Communists when they took power. Captain obvious is obvious, that has been noticed already. The the ignorant point remains, the reason why it is not proper to call Nazis socialists. The reason for that big lie has been mentioned, it is to simple smear the ones that are following more common definitions and demonize more mainstream social movements. There is another reason why a few demagogues do use it, to deny that extremism from the right could lead to fascist regimes and to allow many on the right side of the isle to support them. It does not matter that this took place in the very recent past, it is better to forget that history so it will be easy to replicate it in the future. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/94 "2014-08-19T18:58:10Z")
Extremism on the right doesn’t lead to fascist regimes in the West, because extremism on the right is for smaller government. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/95 "2014-08-19T19:17:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Extremism on the right doesn’t lead to fascist regimes in the West, because extremism on the right is for smaller government. I will point to that as direct evidence of your small world. Franco, Pinochet, dictators from Argentina, Brazil and others show how small your world is. > **[Fascism in South America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_South_America)** > > Although the fascist ideology originated in and is primarily associated with Europe, fascism crossed the Atlantic Ocean during the interwar period and influenced South American politics, with Italian fascism having a deep impact in the region, both directly and indirectly. > In 1934, at least six political parties in Latin America had their principles or ideologies built on Italy's National Fascist Party (including the Gold Shirts in Mexico, based on the Italian Blackshirts). Fascist corporatism... ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/96 "2014-08-19T20:19:38Z")
Not the West. > [@](#): > > Generally speaking, the current consensus would locate the West, at the very least, in the cultures and peoples of Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and parts of Latin America. There is debate among some as to whether Latin America is in a category of its own.[7][18][19] > **[Western world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world)** > > The Western world, also known as the West, primarily refers to various nations and states in the regions of Western Europe,\[a\] Northern America, and Australasia;\[b\] with some debate as to whether those in Eastern Europe and Latin America\[c\] also constitute the West. The Western world likewise is called the Occident (from Latin occidens 'setting down, sunset, west') in contrast to the Eastern world known as the Orient (from Latin oriens 'origin, sunrise, east'). The West is considered an e So... In Latin America, the debate between right and left has always been what kind of strongman should rule, although Latin America today is much more democratic than it used to be, with some exceptions like Venezuela. In the 21st century, it could be argued that the only authoritarianism left in Latin America is the leftist version. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/97 "2014-08-19T20:34:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not the West. > > [Western world - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world) You are part of the “some” that think that, most do not. You are grasping at straws to get away from the fact that you were wrong. (Franco’s Spain was not in the west either? What are you smoking?) > [@](#): > > In Latin America, the debate between right and left has always been what kind of strongman should rule, although Latin America today is much more democratic than it used to be, with some exceptions like Venezuela. In the 21st century, it could be argued that the only authoritarianism left in Latin America is the leftist version. And that was not the point either, what I said you dunderhead was that the recent past is forgotten conveniently to deny that the extreme right is still willing to continue to support fascist dictatorships if they come **again** , as it was seen when the recent coup in Honduras took place. Fortunately the UN defused the situation instead of letting the dementors like DeMint to continue with the old ways. And once again, Chile and many more Latin American countries shows that you are also living in the past regarding the strongmen ruling over there. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/98 "2014-08-19T20:54:59Z")
Honduras wasn’t a coup and it shows your leftist bias that you believe it is. Anti-democratic bias as well. You’ve fallen into the usual trap when thinking about Latin America that the President is The Man and the legislature and courts dont’ matter. The Supreme Court ruled that the President had committed an illegal act and issued a warrant for his arrest. That’s a victory for rule of law. You apparently, prefer rule of men, or one man, actually. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/99 "2014-08-19T22:31:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Honduras wasn’t a coup and it shows your leftist bias that you believe it is. Anti-democratic bias as well. You’ve fallen into the usual trap when thinking about Latin America that the President is The Man and the legislature and courts dont’ matter. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: The truth commission on the case made by independent Hondurans and/or equal parts of the sides involved reported that it was a coup, give it up, your sources are indeed deluding you. > **[Honduras truth commission says coup against Zelaya was unconstitutional](https://www.jurist.org/news/2011/07/honduras-truth-commission-says-coup-was-unconstitutional/)** > > \[JURIST\] The Honduran Truth and Reconciliation Commission on Thursday released their final report \[Heraldo report, in Spanish\] on the June 2009 coup \[JURIST report\] that removed Manuel Zelaya \[BBC pro... And Zelaya, and to be fair, most of the coup planners were pardoned for peace’s sake. The important thing IMHO was that indeed the extreme right wing in the USA lost their latest wanna be pet dictator and the winner of the following election was allowed to become president. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568/100 "2014-08-19T22:37:29Z")
And generalissimo Franco is still dead! 😛 And was from a country that indeed was part of “the West” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-idiots-who-say-the-nazis-were-socialists/695568.md?page=6)