# I Pit the Job Application Process **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688 "2014-12-08T19:47:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/21 "2014-12-09T14:27:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Most states operate under “at will” employment laws, so unless you have a contract that states otherwise, you can be fired for any reason, or no reason at all. But most larger companies operate under their own internal policies and procedures which say they can’t fire someone for any or no reason. In such a case this could be a convenient excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/22 "2014-12-09T14:29:52Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > But most larger companies operate under their own internal policies and procedures which say they can’t fire someone for any or no reason. Why would a company tie their own hands like that? I’ve never seen an employee handbook that wasn’t construed entirely for the interests of the company. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/23 "2014-12-09T14:48:04Z")
Yeah. a lot of those online apps are fucking frustrating. The mother of all evil is Taleo. Just do a search for Taleo Sucks and you’ll see what people think about it. I have actually been asked my elementary school GPA, and it was a required field. Where I used to be able to send in a resume and cover letter, I now have to fill out a probing 45 minute application. I usually have a pretty good reply rate with my resume, but I don’t think I’ve ever gotten a response from an online application process. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/24 "2014-12-09T15:57:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why would a company tie their own hands like that? I’ve never seen an employee handbook that wasn’t construed entirely for the interests of the company. To avoid losing lawsuits (by showing they did things “by the book”) and to give employees some modicum of morale coming from at least the appearance of job security. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/25 "2014-12-09T16:33:41Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > And not only every company I worked for in the past N years, but also my, supervisor’s name, his e-mail and telephone number, and my exact dates of getting hired and leaving. And starting and ending salaries. And why I left. Bonus points if this has to be done using their whacko software. And that info is mostly useless, as generally your manager cant say anything about you anyway. And that _whacko software_! Try entering “NA” or something and it either blocks you from continuing or shuts down. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/26 "2014-12-09T17:16:59Z")
I also used to hate the requests/demands for names and contact information for former supervisors – used to because at age 69, I don’t expect to do much job hunting or applying any more. But in my early years, I worked in the US Senate. When I was asked in later years for names and contact information for former supervisors, I could only provide names. Many of the offices I had worked in did not exist any longer – Senators had retired or been defeated, staff had moved on, and I had lost touch with them. It’s not like my supervisors had been close personal friends. In fact, even after leaving the Hill, I had a few instances of places of employment going out of existence, or branches being closed. And it only gets worse as you get older and more and more of your former supervisors have not only retired, but many have already died. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/27 "2014-12-09T17:31:43Z")
As I understand it, the formal application process is to avoid any accusations of favoritism, or worse, discrimination, down the line. If 10 people apply for a job and 5 are white and 5 are black. And they hire a white guy, and a black person complains that they were discriminated against - the company has to be able to show that all applicants were put through the same standardized process (before being discriminated against). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/28 "2014-12-09T19:18:26Z")
And I’m not against taking an hour to cut and paste information into your goddam online form, if it was for a job that was actually a possibility. But the reality is that there’s only an infinitesimal chance that my application will ever actually be seen by a human being. I have no way of knowing if the job listed is actually a real job, or just bullshit. Every actual job I’ve ever had did not involve filling out the detailed online form first. Instead I either news about the job through connections, or got a call from a recruiter who found my resume online. Since I know the online form is bullshit, there’s no point in taking it seriously. That’s the annoying part. Heck, taking an hour to apply for a job with a 1 in 100 chance would actually be worthwhile. But an hour for a job with zero chance of going anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Sciency](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Sciency](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sciency)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/29 "2014-12-09T22:59:12Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I take issue with the amount of time that I have to put in for a position they may not even consider me for, and the fact that they are demanding a pretty sizable chunk of information including references, job and salary history, sometime SSN, just a lot of stuff that’s really only their business if and when they become (or genuinely wish to become) my employer. Completely agree. I’m seeing this kind of attitude from the government also, and also from companies with the way they treat their customers. Basically they’re passing part of the administrative costs to you by making you make all the effort, and taking as little risks as possible. To be fair though, employees have also adjusted their behaviors. They apply to many places at the same time, do many interviews, they don’t care, then choose the best job. But they did waste the time of a dozens of other companies and recruiters… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/30 "2014-12-09T23:24:22Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Since I know the online form is bullshit, there’s no point in taking it seriously. That is probably deliberate. Companies want drones that will take their shit seriously, so if critical thinkers can be weeded out with a needlessly detailed application process, it’s a plus for them. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/31 "2014-12-10T01:43:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That is probably deliberate. Companies want drones that will take their shit seriously, so if critical thinkers can be weeded out with a needlessly detailed application process, it’s a plus for them. Well, based on my experiences as a hiring manager, what happens is that HR sends over a huge pile of completely inappropriate resumes. If we’re lucky we get a resume through a friend or contact and tell HR to bring this person in. They aren’t smart enough to direct the process to a particular type of candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/32 "2014-12-10T02:24:39Z")
I think I say this in every one of these threads, but I don’t want to give you my SSN right now. Nor my personal info. Do you really want an employee who gives out all their info to every person who asks? That’s not good judgment or very safe. Let me skip it, enter 000-00-0000, give you my city but not my street. I don’t know how you handle your data to keep it from being hacked or just thrown in a dumpster unsecured, I don’t know who is reading it. Plus, you don’t need to know unless you hire me, or maybe much further into the process than me basically cold-calling you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/33 "2014-12-10T02:27:43Z")
> [@Fair\_Rarity](#): > > I think I say this in every one of these threads, but I don’t want to give you my SSN right now. No job for you! _NEXT!!_ Seriously, I think they do it on purpose. They don’t want troublemakers who question authority. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/34 "2014-12-10T13:13:23Z")
I keep running into this stuipid issue- auto forms that demand two references (one kf which must be your previous employer) before you can apply. My previous employer was a disabled lady with health issues, I was working as an assistant for, and the official business address is her house. She asked me not to give out her private info without permission- including her name and address. She’s generally able to give a reference, with a fair bit of notice, if she’s well enough, but it’s a major hassle and she’s (understandably) not OK with her details being handed out to companies when it’s not necessary. It’s bad enough getting business spam at work, getting it at home in quantity, when you already have enough to deal with, is a bit much. I have a perfectly good previous employer’s reference, dammit, I just can’t give out the details unless I’ve at least had an interview I know no-one will actually check and references until I’ve had an interview, so why can’t I just bring details along then…? ---
**Author:** ![Fair\_Rarity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fair_rarity/32/153_2.png) [@Fair\_Rarity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fair_Rarity)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/35 "2014-12-11T02:42:22Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > I have a perfectly good previous employer’s reference, dammit, I just can’t give out the details unless I’ve at least had an interview I know no-one will actually check and references until I’ve had an interview, so why can’t I just bring details along then…? That’s what makes me miss the old-fashioned, handwritten applications, where you could write “available upon hiring” or “will furnish at an interview” or something instead of an online form that refuses to let you skip a field. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/36 "2014-12-11T15:55:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, in mine. They send you a email or you send them one to see if you are interested. Then you send a Resume (that of course gives them your job history). Then a informal phone interview. Then the application. Because in my industry that come with a credit and background check, and those arent cheap. > > Then the real interview, then a 2nd interview, maybe a 3rd. Somewhere along there they do the checks. Ah, so you’re used to being headhunted. Repeat after me: headhunted \<\> applicant. Applicants have always had to fill up the paperwork, some of which may include hopelessly outdated or even illegal questions. I’m guessing part of the reason why two of the three guys currently in the process of being headhunted for jobs within my client include their HS GPAs is because there are so many companies which ask for that in their applications. Personally, when I apply I don’t bother fill that: I’ve got an Engineering degree, a couple of Master’s and twenty years’ experience, fuck my HS grades and fuck sideways anybody who gives a shit about them at this stage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/37 "2014-12-11T16:50:40Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Ah, so you’re used to being headhunted. > > Repeat after me: headhunted \<\> applicant. > > Applicants have always had to fill up the paperwork, some of which may include hopelessly outdated or even illegal questions. Yes- mostly, but I did say “They send you a email _or you send them one_…” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/38 "2014-12-11T21:13:19Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > My experience has apparently been very different from most of you: > > -Submit resume > -Informal discussions > -formal interview > -Sometimes more interviewing > -Paperwork > -Hire Exactly the process we use, in four very large computer companies. If I see a resume I’m interested in, I do a phone screen. I’m pretty sure we don’t ask for an application until there is a decision to make an offer - which is contingent on the background check, of course. I’m sometimes copied on email between HR and a candidate, and I don’t recall applications being discussed, though I assume they do get sent. When I took this job 17 years ago I did fill out an application the day of the interview, but the HR person said not to worry about it. But I made that connection through networking anyhow, so even the resume was not very important. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/39 "2014-12-11T21:17:45Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Ah, so you’re used to being headhunted. > > Repeat after me: headhunted \<\> applicant. > > Applicants have always had to fill up the paperwork, some of which may include hopelessly outdated or even illegal questions. I’m guessing part of the reason why two of the three guys currently in the process of being headhunted for jobs within my client include their HS GPAs is because there are so many companies which ask for that in their applications. Personally, when I apply I don’t bother fill that: I’ve got an Engineering degree, a couple of Master’s and twenty years’ experience, fuck my HS grades and fuck sideways anybody who gives a shit about them at this stage. No. The procedure is the same for new college grads whose resumes I get from our internal pipeline, experienced people whom submit resumes to our on-line site, or people (usually candidates for internships) I solicit through their professors. Nobody fills out an application before we know there is a good match. But our HR works for us - we don’t work for them. I think companies who dictate how hiring managers can contact candidates might be different. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688/40 "2014-12-11T21:50:59Z")
Since we’re complaining, I thought I would add this snippet from a recent app I submitted. The position called for a Master’s degree at minimum. I have a JD, so no problem, right? The questionnaire has 2 required fields: Do you have an earned Master’s Degree? Yes/No Do you have an earned Doctorate? Yes/No I check no to the first, yes to the second. Because those were the honest answers to the questions. Think nothing of it, allowed to go through the multi-page app, click submit, get a message: we have determined that you do not meet minimum qualifications. Thank you. Closes the window. I am not allowed to edit the app. I chuckle about silly technology and shoot an e-mail to the HR dept, explaining the situation. I get back, “We’re sorry, but the system determined you did not meet qualifications. Thank you for your interest.” This was from a real live person, not automated. _crumples keyboard_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-job-application-process/706688.md?page=3)