# I pit the laws that alienate fathers from their children through no fault of their own **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497 "2011-09-07T13:21:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/21 "2011-09-07T20:10:04Z")
Cant you enter some form of legal contract where your obligations and that of the mother would be written down (I dont know if that’s legal, and if it is, what worth it would have if there was a legal battle)? Seems you’re getting scared out of nothing tangible. Get some legal help, at least your fears will now be based on something real (frankly legal help on the internet is as useful as medical help on the internet. After the second site visited, you’ll _know_ you have two cancers, and a rare genetic disease). ---
**Author:** ![kathmandu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kathmandu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kathmandu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/22 "2011-09-07T20:16:35Z")
In the cases you cite where the fathers think they’re being “screwed by the courts”, they’re really being screwed by their ex wives (or ex girlfriends). People seem to have a totally unrealistic expectation about what courts can and can’t do. They can’t make your ex be nice to you or act like a reasonable person. All they can do is grant orders, and mete out punishment if the orders aren’t followed. If you choose to have children with a person who isn’t going to view your relationship with that child as something that should be valued and nurtured, you’re gonna have problems. The courts can’t fix interpersonal relationships or make someone not be a bitch (or an asshole). A judge isn’t a magical person who can make chicken salad out of chicken shit. ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice_1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/23 "2011-09-07T22:05:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It _was_ badly written. Words have meaning. You undermine whatever real arguments you have when you make bogus arguments like “fathers are forced to pay maintenance.” Make real arguments or don’t make any at all. > > Anyway, welcome to being a parent. I would _love_ to have a kid, but I live in a shitty studio apartment, make no money, and have no way to take care of one. Taking care of a kid would make my life infinitely harder than it already is. Being a parent opens you up to insecurity and heartache that I’m not ready to deal with. It opens you up to financial problems like you wouldn’t believe. I can’t care for a kid like that. So, I make sure that stuff gets wrapped up. > > It’s not that I don’t feel bad for you- it’s a tough position to be in. But it’s not all that unexpected or unpreventable of a predicament. Life is tough and big choices have big consequences. jesus, i’m venting in the pit, and wrote one word wrong. fucking hell, you’re being pretty condescending. ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice_1)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/24 "2011-09-07T22:07:30Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Cant you enter some form of legal contract where your obligations and that of the mother would be written down (I dont know if that’s legal, and if it is, what worth it would have if there was a legal battle)? > > Seems you’re getting scared out of nothing tangible. Get some legal help, at least your fears will now be based on something real (frankly legal help on the internet is as useful as medical help on the internet. After the second site visited, you’ll _know_ you have two cancers, and a rare genetic disease). 😃 yeah, i know what you mean. to be honest, i think the legal side appears to be that i have rights, but they’re incredibly hard to enforce in the real world. therefore finding out my rights doesn’t help me that much. i just have to try as hard as possible that we keep it as amicable as possible and hope that she wants to keep it that way too. cheers for the replies. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/25 "2011-09-07T23:06:41Z")
If you have an amicable split, and each of you think the other is a good parent, and you’re doing contact as frequently as you say, I think you’re worrying needlessly. A very large number of separations never make it to court because of these kinds of things, ie both parents do work together in the interests of the child and it never gets to the point where legal intervention is required. If you’re hearing about court matters, it pretty much by definition means things are already in dire straits. Otara ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/26 "2011-09-07T23:19:28Z")
> [@Biffer\_Spice](#): > > there are many more that i’ve read from different websites, but when going to look for some, i merely picked the first two i found. i’ve done more reading than that. lf course they’re biased websites because it’s a forum for people who are being screwed by the courts to post their experiences. that’s why i found it. ergo, it’s going to be a biased website. the fact that there are a lot of them about seems to indicate there may be good reason. You’ll find lots of websites about non-custodial parents people being screwed by paying too much child support or not getting visitation. You will probably find an equal number of websites complaining that custodial parents don’t get their child support or that the non-custodial parent doesn’t show up for visits. What you won’t find many of are websites describing generally amicable relationships between custodial and non-custodial parents. Not perfect - even in the best relationships there will be occasional friction over one parent being unwilling to adjust the schedule or some such thing. The reason you won’t find them is because people generally don’t start websites and blogs about relationships, situations, etc that they like. There aren’t any " Customers are Great" websites or even “Customers are OK” The fact that there are a lot of websites doesn’t tell you anything about what _your_ relationship with _this_ particular woman is going to be like. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/27 "2011-09-08T00:37:22Z")
> [@Biffer\_Spice](#): > > jesus, i’m venting in the pit, and wrote one word wrong. fucking hell, you’re being pretty condescending. I’ve got a reputation to keep. That said, I think you knew what you were typing. Any parent who is having trouble with custody has my full sympathy. But I don’t have much for people with a million excuses why they can’t take responsibility for their child but still want to bitch that they don’t also have the control. We have legal mechanisms for ensuring that people play a permanent and major role in their kids life. It’s no skin off my back if you choose not to engage in them. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/28 "2011-09-08T06:12:52Z")
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, I am aware you have full parental rights without marriage, I was referring to custody/maintenance not being registered, but instead an amicable agreement. We have the same in Canada, full rights protection without the marriage contract! But if you want your custody/maintenance enforced, you have to register it with the court. Sounds like you have a pretty good relationship with your X. Have you considered talking to her about what sort of arrangement she might want, in such a case? You could be honest and tell her it’s keeping you up at night. Negotiate some minimums, with her, and ask her to put it in writing to easy your worried mind. You’ve both come this far. That speaks for both of you, maybe you _could_ talk to her, over the phone, or email maybe. Just open a dialogue and see where it goes? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/29 "2011-09-08T08:10:48Z")
> [@Biffer\_Spice](#): > > she recently came to a family event of mine as she thinks that, for the sake of the kid, we should get on with each others families, etc. Well, both families’ are the kid’s family, so it’s not a matter of “getting on with my ex’s family”, it’s a matter of “getting on with my child’s family”. I recommend some breathing exercises. Thinking about the future is important (1), but you just can’t let worry for the future stop you from enjoying your present. You have a good relationship with the ex, she’s smart and knows that breaking up with you doesn’t have to mean breaking up her kid’s family; speak to a lawyer to find out what the actual laws are like and then. Take. Deep. Breaths and enjoy your kid’s smile. 1: as my then-future-SiL told her then-groom when he complained that “you women, you’re always thinking about the future!” “well, _someone_ has to!” ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/30 "2011-09-08T08:32:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why don’t you pay a lawyer to sit down and talk to you about the situation? It seems like you are mostly scared because you _don’t know_. Stories on the internet are not a great place to get information, because you don’t know what else is going on. I don’t know about paying a lawyer, if you are half smart at research I think you could find some substantial free information on this topic. Other than that, I agree. But do not trust the stuff on parenting websites. At the risk of stating the obvious, people are monumentally emotive about this sort of thing and that causes them to refuse to admit or acknowledge relevant facts. This causes them to be totally unreliable sources of information about their own situation and hence totally unreliable sources of information about what would happen to you in apparently similar circumstances. I don’t think it means much at all that you find lots of websites with people telling horror stories. In something as emotive as parenting, there would be very few people who did not receive the court orders they wanted who would be self reflective and honest enough to admit that the orders were just: on the contrary most people will see themselves as dreadfully wronged regardless. It sounds to me like you are very fearful about a situation that hasn’t arisen, and I suspect that the reality is that unless the mother of your wife turns into someone she doesn’t seem to be and starts acting like a complete bitch, you aren’t going to have any problems. And even if she did start acting like a complete bitch, I think you will find there are remedies available. Particularly if you have the money to pay lawyers, and you don’t suggest that money is a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice_1)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/31 "2011-09-08T08:41:03Z")
thanks everyone 🙂 money would definitely be a problem if lawyers were involved. as it stands, there is no need for lawyers between us. i’m just worried about the future, but maybe you’re right, in that mentioning it as a fear would be good to get some reassurance. thanks for the comments, people 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/32 "2011-09-08T09:01:35Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Neither system is great, but yours is much, much better. Unless the abuser is the mom, or the mom’s new boyfriend 😕 [QUOTE=Capitaine Zombie] Cant you enter some form of legal contract where your obligations and that of the mother would be written down (I dont know if that’s legal, and if it is, what worth it would have if there was a legal battle)? [/QUOTE] Well, there is a form of legal contract like that… they call it marriage 😃 Joke aside, even if a we’re-separated-but-with-obligations contract was legal (no idea), what would be the incentive for his ex- to sign such one ? Why give up absoluuuute poooweeeer \*\*MUAHAHAHAHA \*\*?! ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice_1)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/33 "2011-09-08T10:16:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Unless the abuser is the mom, or the mom’s new boyfriend 😕 > > Well, there is a form of legal contract like that… they call it marriage 😃 > Joke aside, even if a we’re-separated-but-with-obligations contract was legal (no idea), what would be the incentive for his ex- to sign such one ? Why give up absoluuuute poooweeeer \*\*MUAHAHAHAHA \*\*?! and with the original worry being that even with rights, the courts seem unwilling or unable to enforce them, this would do little to alleviate that worry ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/34 "2011-09-08T11:20:25Z")
I’ve got nothing to add, but one thing: living arrangements. Do you live near the mom now? Now that your son is still a baby, there’ s only the picking up/dropping off to consider. But as the kid gets older, there will be daycare and school and babysitters and friends to consider. If you live near the mom, you will fit in their lives and the situation will be much easier to keep up for everyone. I know a couple of parents in your situation that decided to buy a somewhat larger home, and divide it amongst them. That forced them to be polite and even welcoming to new lovers. But in the end, that made for a living arrangement that they were both far more reluctant to break up. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/35 "2011-09-08T14:15:29Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, there is a form of legal contract like that… they call it marriage 😃 > Joke aside, even if a we’re-separated-but-with-obligations contract was legal (no idea), what would be the incentive for his ex- to sign such one ? Why give up absoluuuute poooweeeer \*\*MUAHAHAHAHA \*\*?! Actually she has more incentive to sign a contract than he does. That incentive being legally-enforcable child support. Next month and beyond, if he stops chipping in money for the kid, there’s very little she can do about it, because in the eye of the law it’s a moot issue. She’s taking it completely on faith that he will continue to hold up his end of the bargain. I imagine that as we speak, the OP’s ex is participating in a thread on another message board, venting about how the law leaves mothers high and dry through no fault of their own. And the other posters are probably telling her to stop whining about this risk if she’s not willing to go through the legal rigamarole to ensure that he pays child support. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/36 "2011-09-08T14:48:05Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > I’ve got nothing to add, but one thing: living arrangements. > > Do you live near the mom now? Now that your son is still a baby, there’ s only the picking up/dropping off to consider. But as the kid gets older, there will be daycare and school and babysitters and friends to consider. If you live near the mom, you will fit in their lives and the situation will be much easier to keep up for everyone. > > I know a couple of parents in your situation that decided to buy a somewhat larger home, and divide it amongst them. That forced them to be polite and even welcoming to new lovers. But in the end, that made for a living arrangement that they were both far more reluctant to break up. The best one I ever heard was where the parents bough a home for the child. the child got the largest bedroom, each of the parents took one of the smaller ones. The parents each had another “place” but moved in and out of the child’s home at two week intervals. Too expensive for most, but absolutely the optimal if you have two good parents. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/37 "2011-09-08T15:23:15Z")
> [@kathmandu](#): > > In the cases you cite where the fathers think they’re being “screwed by the courts”, they’re really being screwed by their ex wives (or ex girlfriends). Fathers couldn’t be screwed over by their exes without the courts being massively biased towards mothers. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/38 "2011-09-08T15:38:37Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Joke aside, even if a we’re-separated-but-with-obligations contract was legal (no idea), what would be the incentive for his ex- to sign such one ? Why give up absoluuuute poooweeeer \*\*MUAHAHAHAHA \*\*?! Well, honestly, she would probably sign it to reassure him. I mean, there is absolutely no evidence here that this woman is some power hungry bitch looking to exploit the OP and destroy his relationship with his child; the opposite actually. She sounds like a good mom and a generally nice lady who is working to create an amicable relationship with her ex, and to ensure their kid gets to see both of them, etc. The OP is freaked out by a bunch of garbage he’s read on those disgusting “father’s rights” sites, and is projecting those (pretty unlikely) fears onto her. Maybe a visit to reality would help here. Talk to your ex. If she is the responsible, normal person she comes across as here (even as you are trying to portray the situation in the scariest light), I think she will do much to reassure you. As someone else said, she probably has her own worries as well. Talk to her!! Communication is the key to making this work long-term; go ahead and start now. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/39 "2011-09-08T22:40:08Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > In Peru, the laws always go for the mother. In any dispute the mother gets the kids and you have to prove that the mum is selling drugs stored in the kids anus while she forces them to have sex with strangers and later bathing them in acid, to get custody. How are the parental (or maternity) leave laws, maternal mortality rates and what are reproductive rights like in Peru? Normally, bias towards women doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it exists in a society where women’s roles as mothers is seen as desirable and natural above all others (lover, employee, boss, whatever). So if people are all right with telling women their place is in the home, denying them accessible birth control and prenatal care, denying men parental leave and denying women any kind of parental leave that could help them be both mothers and employees, then assuming that they are, by default, the natural caregivers doesn’t seem that ludicrous. If, on the other hand, you support laws and mindset that position men and women as equally competent in both the home and the workplace, then it is a travesty. Which is why some of those father’s rights sites are so odd to me. They bash feminism, but can’t see why it should be in line with their own supposed desires. ETA For the OP, as others have said, talk to your ex! If she is a good person, then of course she’s going to have the same concern about both of your presence in the child’s wife. You can have the best relationship ever and still be concerned about one of you dating again or finding a job abroad (hell, you could still be together and wonder how you’d handle a new, or lost, job). ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497/40 "2011-09-08T22:59:12Z")
You should go to mediation with a good lawyer and get things signed. She’ll have no choice to respect what you both agreed to and signed. And if you want to look at it a different way, your kids are crazy lucky that they have two parents who want them all the time. My daughter’s bio dad hasn’t seen her in almost two YEARS. I used to do everything I could to get him to see her, but he couldn’t handle it. I’d have given anything for a baby daddy like you who would worry and fight over his rights to her. He never would have had to, but the fact that you’ll fight tooth and nail to see those kids makes them lucky, very very lucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-laws-that-alienate-fathers-from-their-children-through-no-fault-of-their-own/595497.md?page=3)