# I pit the makers of this toy for special needs children **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 29, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435 "2011-11-29T09:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/21 "2011-11-30T23:40:27Z")
Price minus cost equals profit. Do any of you have information about the cost structure of special needs manufacturers? Could there be specific regulatory demands that need to be met, that absorb alot of revenue? Maybe business insurance for that segment is very costly. Also fixed costs are spread out over a small number of units. Why is it a scam? ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/22 "2011-12-01T00:20:34Z")
Personally, if I or my friends had paid anywhere from $150-300 for that toy I’d be mad too. According to the OP it was badly made and I know jack about electronics and even I could tell they were junky parts. Compare that to a Fisher-Price toy you can buy at KMart for $20 and which is built like a tank, because toys sold for infants/toddlers have to meet very strict safety standards for choking hazards, heavy metals etc. and which look rather similar to the hunk of junk in the OP. Obviously, there are a lot less of the special needs toys sold compared to Fisher-Price ones, but going by rogerbox’s estimate of the parts costing $6 that’s $144-294 profit. I have no idea what their operating costs or the retail markup was, but I’d think that’s more than enough to put a couple screws and some more robust plastic into that thing. Not to mention that the toys from the OP are marketed towards special needs children, whose parents have a full plate caring for them already. And, like his roomates, not eveyone is savvy enough to shop around before paying that much for something. At the end of the day, his roomates are out $300, and most of all their daughter is out a toy she liked (unless he managed to fix it for them). Scam might not be the exact precise word, but to me it sure sounds like a ripoff. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/23 "2011-12-01T00:21:22Z")
This might be an ignorant question, but why can’t they just not use toys for younger children? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/24 "2011-12-01T00:24:35Z")
> [@FE3O4ENAIL](#): > > Why is it a scam? Because the manufacturer would need to hire chimpanzees to achieve any worse build quality, and they’re selling it for real-world real-product money. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/25 "2011-12-01T00:37:39Z")
> [@ugly ripe tomato](#): > > going by rogerbox’s estimate of the parts costing $6 that’s $144-294 profit. > Scam might not be the exact precise word, but to me it sure sounds like a ripoff. Sales price minus materals cost doesn’t equal profit. Have you read a business statement? At the top sales. Then we can subtract returns and allowances, subcontract purchases, raw materials,electricity, freight, wages,salaries,consultants,workmans comp,ss tax,unemployment ins,health insurance,repairs to equip,rent, warehouse costs,property taxes,sales discounts,travel and promotion,meals,professional dues,office supplies,telephone,depreciation,bad debts,fines,etc. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/26 "2011-12-01T00:48:11Z")
**FE3O4ENAIL** : OK, ignore dollar amounts for a second and look at the quality. Do you agree that selling something that’s fundamentally badly made as if it were up to normal standards of quality is fraudulent, or at least seriously dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/27 "2011-12-01T00:55:44Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **FE3O4ENAIL** : OK, ignore dollar amounts for a second and look at the quality. Do you agree that selling something that’s fundamentally badly made as if it were up to normal standards of quality is fraudulent, or at least seriously dishonest? Yes, I think the manufaturer should repair or replace poor quality product. I am just trying to fight ignorance, when people make uninformed statements about business. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/28 "2011-12-01T01:04:23Z")
Edit: fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/29 "2011-12-01T01:16:08Z")
BTW no, it was not repairable. ---
**Author:** ![FE3O4ENAIL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba9def/32.png) [@FE3O4ENAIL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FE3O4ENAIL)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/30 "2011-12-01T01:23:26Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > BTW no, it was not repairable. Then those worthless piles of scum should be skinned and tied to a fireant hill. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/31 "2011-12-01T02:12:00Z")
Expensive toys and devices are just part of the cost of special needs kids. The iPad made a huge storm in the autism community because for about $600 you could replace specialized augmentive communication devices that cost upwards of $10k. Hasn’t worked for my daughter as she has an “action tremor” as well, although with her angry bird mad skilz shen may be able to work some of the autism programs soon. to the OP, good on ya. As another poster has noted, using a normal toy substitute where possible is good. You can also try Super Duper Inc for specialty stuff and while it may be overpriced it’s probably not crap. [http://www.superduperinc.com/](http://www.superduperinc.com/) ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/32 "2011-12-01T02:29:40Z")
Is there no topic that’s safe from the Apple Army? ---
**Author:** ![Dolomite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Dolomite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dolomite)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/33 "2011-12-01T03:35:42Z")
Using an Android tablet causes Autism. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/34 "2011-12-01T11:03:01Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Is there no topic that’s safe from the Apple Army? I don’t like Apple either, but that has nothing to do with recognizing that the release of a popular, easy to use tablet would help out autistic children. It doesn’t mean that another device might not be just as good or better, or that it might be cheaper. Heck, if anything, it could be a slight to Apple, saying that even the overly expensive iPad was cheap compared to the usual stuff for autistic children. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/35 "2011-12-01T11:30:04Z")
> [@Dolomite](#): > > Using an Android tablet causes Autism. Haha. 1up. ---
**Author:** ![Techman50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a8b319/32.png) [@Techman50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Techman50)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/36 "2011-12-01T15:54:04Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > This piece of garbage: > > [Musical Snail | Enabling Devices](http://enablingdevices.com/catalog/toys_for_disabled_children/musical-instruments-accessories/musical-snail) > > Background: I am an electronics repair man as a side job, hopefully to be my fulltime job sometime in the next few years. My roommates have a daughter who is special needs. I am not sure of the exact nature of her disability, but she cannot move or speak and she is heavily medicated. She is almost 9 but is wheelchair bound and looks around 5 years old. She can manipulate toys by veeeery slightly moving her hands. > > So my roommates asked me if I could take a look at the above toy because it was very expensive. They told me it cost them $300 which is more expensive than the website but they didn’t just get it and I’m sure some brick and mortar store could’ve easily marked it up that much. My roommates are from Mexico and I don’t think they know how to shop around online. > > I took apart this freaking POS and it is ATROCIOUSLY put together. Tape and glue wildly used to jerry-rig the entire thing together, and, I suspect, to keep costs down from using screws (more on that in a second). The board that controls the music is about 1" square, and the wires to it are ALL barely soldered onto it, there is tons of exposed wire and the wire that is there is extremely low quality. This soldering work would’ve gotten me an F in my Electronics 100 class in high school. Here are pics of this “craftsmanship”: > > [http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura1.jpg](http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura1.jpg) > [http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura2.jpg](http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura2.jpg) > [http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura3.jpg](http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura3.jpg) > [http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura4.jpg](http://toptiertronic.com/pics/aura4.jpg) > > There is probably 6$ at MOST worth of materials on this piece of garbage, and my roomates paid hundreds for it…and also it has a “proudly made in the USA” sticker on the bottom which I absolutely do not believe. It would take way to long (time being money) to make this the incredibly low quality, ass backwards way this company did. I am right now designing a high quality PCB for a product I make a few dozen of per year, it will cost me a few hundreds of dollars to prototype, but it still makes financial sense for me to do so. Why? Because soldering wires to wires is a waste of time, and time=money in the USA, and labor is generally higher than part cost for low level electronics such as this. So I am making a high quality PCB which will eliminate as much soldering as possible so I don’t have to solder two wires to a metal loop like the genius who made this did. But overseas where labor is next to free and parts are a larger part of the cost of a product, it would make sense for a barely-paid no-skill solderer to solder two wires to a metal loop rather than design a higher quality PCB from the beginning. > > Anyways, I think this is a huge scam and I’m so mad my roommates with a special needs daughter got ripped off trying to buy a toy she could interact with the world. :mad: Dear Mr. **rogerbox** : First let me say I am sorry that you had a problem with one of our products. Our intent is to offer affordable and reliable toys and devices to the special needs population. Mr. **rogerbox** noted the cost his roommate paid for the Musical Snail toy was $300.00. We sell this toy for $129.95, so his roommate purchased the toy from another source which we have no way of policing others pricing. Did Mr. **rogerbox** or his roommate reach out to Enabling Devices for help with this toy so we could repair the item for them? That item has a one year manufacturing defect warranty, which covers the repair cost so the customer has no additional out of pocket expense. If Enabling Devices is not notified of a problem, we have no way of knowing about it or helping the customer. In 35 years we have provided roughly 3 million pieces of equipment for the disabled community all over the world. We work with special education teachers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, parents of the disabled, and the children themselves. All of these groups of experts assist us in developing these products. This equipment is made by hand a few at a time and has utilized production methods which have proven to be reliable for this community. Yes, we use hot melt glue to fasten parts securely - it does not look like mass produced products manufactured in the millions by major toy companies. If you contact schools or find institutions using this equipment you will find very positive comments on our products functionality, durability and cost. Examine the prices of our competitors, ours are significantly lower. We manufacture our own products but also take toys which are available at toy stores and open and reconstruct, re-wire and add circuitry to them for switch activation by physically disabled youngsters. Add the cost of the labor to take the toy apart, rewire and add circuitry, put the toy back together, repackage it and make it look like it did before it was opened – all this is not as easy as you think. Keep in mind the original manufacturer never intended for their product to be reworked to take special switches like ours. These switch adapted products give a special needs child the ability to enjoy the toy just like any other child. In the end we are not making a lot of money. We do not always get wholesale pricing because we do not buy enough products, so we are sometimes forced to buy at retail prices. We try to avoid this whenever possible but there are some toys we believe would benefit our users enough to warrant buying them at retail prices and still do the adaption work rather than not offering a wonderful toy to our customers. We work in special education schools and centers on a regular basis. In many cases, students in these schools can barely move their head or only a finger. Each day we see the joy in a child’s face when they can move their head or finger to activate a switch we’ve manufactured that enables them to turn on a toy that we’ve adapted. Regular toys do not work for this population of children. If you would like to discuss any problems not addressed please call Dr. Steven Kanor Ph.D at Enabling Devices/Toys for Special Children. ---
**Author:** ![Techman50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a8b319/32.png) [@Techman50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Techman50)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/37 "2011-12-01T15:57:29Z")
First let me say I am sorry that you had a problem with one of our products. Our intent is to offer affordable and reliable toys and devices to the special needs population. Mr. Blake noted the cost his roommate paid for the Musical Snail toy was $300.00. We sell this toy for $129.95, so his roommate purchased the toy from another source which we have no way of policing others pricing. Did Mr. Blake or his roommate reach out to Enabling Devices for help with this toy so we could repair the item for them? That item has a one year manufacturing defect warranty, which covers the repair cost so the customer has no additional out of pocket expense. If Enabling Devices is not notified of a problem, we have no way of knowing about it or helping the customer. In 35 years we have provided roughly 3 million pieces of equipment for the disabled community all over the world. We work with special education teachers, speech therapists, occupational therapists, parents of the disabled, and the children themselves. All of these groups of experts assist us in developing these products. This equipment is made by hand a few at a time and has utilized production methods which have proven to be reliable for this community. Yes, we use hot melt glue to fasten parts securely - it does not look like mass produced products manufactured in the millions by major toy companies. If you contact schools or find institutions using this equipment you will find very positive comments on our products functionality, durability and cost. Examine the prices of our competitors, ours are significantly lower. We manufacture our own products but also take toys which are available at toy stores and open and reconstruct, re-wire and add circuitry to them for switch activation by physically disabled youngsters. Add the cost of the labor to take the toy apart, rewire and add circuitry, put the toy back together, repackage it and make it look like it did before it was opened – all this is not as easy as you think. Keep in mind the original manufacturer never intended for their product to be reworked to take special switches like ours. These switch adapted products give a special needs child the ability to enjoy the toy just like any other child. In the end we are not making a lot of money. We do not always get wholesale pricing because we do not buy enough products, so we are sometimes forced to buy at retail prices. We try to avoid this whenever possible but there are some toys we believe would benefit our users enough to warrant buying them at retail prices and still do the adaption work rather than not offering a wonderful toy to our customers. We work in special education schools and centers on a regular basis. In many cases, students in these schools can barely move their head or only a finger. Each day we see the joy in a child’s face when they can move their head or finger to activate a switch we’ve manufactured that enables them to turn on a toy that we’ve adapted. Regular toys do not work for this population of children. If you would like to discuss any problems not addressed please call Dr. Steven Kanor Ph.D at Enabling Devices/Toys for Special Children. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/38 "2011-12-01T16:17:32Z")
> [@Techman50](#): > > Mr. **rogerbox** noted the cost his roommate paid for the Musical Snail toy was $300.00. We sell this toy for $129.95, so his roommate purchased the toy from another source which we have no way of policing others pricing. Nonetheless, it makes your company look bad. Perhaps you should advertise more directly to consumers to avoid this sort of thing. > [@](#): > > All of these groups of experts assist us in developing these products. This equipment is made by hand a few at a time and has utilized production methods which have proven to be reliable for this community. I used to hand-assemble electronic devices for G H Boyd Systems electronic and midi-bagpipes. I have some familiarity with such a process. Based on that experience, I think the construction of your toy is shit. > [@](#): > > Yes, we use hot melt glue to fasten parts securely - it does not look like mass produced products manufactured in the millions by major toy companies. While hot melt is not inherently a problem it could have been done a hell of a lot neater. And beyond that, you still haven’t accounted for the shitty soldering job and the use of tape, which will inevitably dry out and fall off, instead of a more secure means of fastening wire. > [@](#): > > Add the cost of the labor to take the toy apart, rewire and add circuitry, put the toy back together, repackage it and make it look like it did before it was opened – all this is not as easy as you think. No, but for the prices you charge you could have hired competent people to at least do the soldering. Soldering is not rocket science. It’s not that hard to do a decent job although, of course, you actually have to have someone who gives a damn involved. > [@](#): > > We do not always get wholesale pricing because we do not buy enough products, so we are sometimes forced to buy at retail prices. Then fire the incompetent ordering your supplies and materials. I’ve worked for small businesses in the past and am working for one now. It’s a trivial matter for even a small business to obtain a discount based on even slightly greater than retail customer volume. Hey, how about spending less time and energy on paying someone to compose a response on a message board and more on competent purchasers and craftsmen. Really, I could solder better than that mess pictured when I was 12 years old. This could have been done so much better. It wasn’t. You should be ashamed of yourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/39 "2011-12-01T18:13:17Z")
> [@](#): > > If you contact schools or find institutions using this equipment you will find very positive comments on our products functionality, durability and cost. Yeah, but schools and hospitals have multimillion dollar budgets and the toy is used by more than one child, whereas rogerbox’s friends are one family who had to absorb the cost. > [@](#): > > We manufacture our own products but also \*\*take toys which are available at toy stores and open and reconstruct, re-wire and add circuitry to them \*\*for switch activation by physically disabled youngsters. Add the cost of the labor to take the toy apart, rewire and add circuitry, put the toy back together, repackage it and make it look like it did before it was opened – all this is not as easy as you think. **Keep in mind the original manufacturer never intended for their product to be reworked to take special switches like ours**. My bolding. If reworking premade toys is such a drain on resources, I’d think it was time to take what you’ve learned from your experts and put that money towards manufacturing your own and paying more attention to quality. Instead of having to unscrew/rewire/change out parts that don’t fit and that weren’t designed for the thing your assemblers could pop the components right into place and only have to screw the toy together once. And is that OK with the original manufacturers of the toys? Once you’ve disassembled and put your own unauthorized components into the “Toyco Drive Mommy Bonkers Caterpillar Piano” and resold it as the “Enabling Toys Interactive Caterpillar” it still looks like the original product. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435/40 "2011-12-01T18:17:06Z")
> [@Dolomite](#): > > Using an Android tablet causes Autism. And using an Apple tablet causes elitism and taking up space in coffee shops while ‘writing a novel’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-makers-of-this-toy-for-special-needs-children/604435.md?page=3)