# I pit the New York Times Sunday crossword **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 24, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084 "2011-05-24T22:49:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/21 "2011-05-25T15:41:28Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > “It keeps a watch on someone” would be better, IMO. “One keeping a watch” suggests a person. Yes, BUT “one” used for a thing is proper English, just highly non-idiomatic. “it” used for a person is incorrect. In other words, the more idiomatic “it” would have been less ambiguous, so less of a fun challenge. I let my NY Times subscription lapse, and the crossword puzzle is one of several things I miss. However there’s only so many hours in a day and it took me an hour on the Sunday puzzle … just to half-finish it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/22 "2011-05-25T15:45:51Z")
Ha! I actually got it before looking at the spoiler. And I’m terrible at crossword puzzles. I probably wouldn’t have got it though if I hadn’t known there was some kind of odd twist to it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/23 "2011-05-25T15:48:11Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > The “one” is perfectly fair, too. If I own a watch strap, I have one. I need one to to keep a watch on me. > > The point of the NYT puzzle is that the words can have two meanings. It just short of a cryptic crossword (the most challenging of them all), where such things happen in just about every definition. The standard one-to-one definitions in most US crosswords are the main reason I don’t bother with them. Amen. The Sunday crosswords are the only ones I bother with. I get my fix from Mum sending me over a couple of books of Daily Telegraph cryptic crosswords a year. The Sunday NYT puzzle isn’t meant to test your ability as a walking thesaurus but instead requires a certain amount more creative thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/24 "2011-05-25T16:46:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes, BUT > “one” used for a thing is proper English, just highly non-idiomatic. > “it” used for a person is incorrect. > > In other words, the more idiomatic “it” would have been less ambiguous, so less of a fun challenge. Yes, I see your point and that of **RealityChuck**. The “one (of these) keeping a watch on someone” reading does sound unnatural to me, though. ---
**Author:** ![Philliam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/philliam/32/3011_2.png) [@Philliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philliam)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/25 "2011-05-25T17:49:27Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Amen. The Sunday crosswords are the only ones I bother with. I get my fix from Mum sending me over a couple of books of Daily Telegraph cryptic crosswords a year. The Sunday NYT puzzle isn’t meant to test your ability as a walking thesaurus but instead requires a certain amount more creative thinking. Agreed. I started doing the cryptic’s years ago when I worked overseas with primarily British crews and the only crosswords available were cut out of any newspapers that could be found (usually The Times, Daily Telegraph, Guardian or Observer). I love the Penguin Series of Daily Telegraph or Times puzzles and always take a couple of the books along when travelling. The best (and most frustrating of the Series’) are the books that contain the Regional and National ‘prize’ puzzles from competitions, along with the percentage of competitors who completed each puzzle within the required time. As an American, I am amazed if I can solve a competition puzzle in a few hours, let alone inside 30 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/26 "2011-05-25T18:18:14Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Amen. The Sunday crosswords are the only ones I bother with. I get my fix from Mum sending me over a couple of books of Daily Telegraph cryptic crosswords a year. The Sunday NYT puzzle isn’t meant to test your ability as a walking thesaurus but instead requires a certain amount more creative thinking. Actually, the daily NYT puzzles are still pretty good. The key is the day: Monday’s is easiest, with the simplest theme. Friday’s is a bear, often with no short words in the entire puzzle. Sometimes they’ll run puzzles that don’t include letters, but rather symbols or numbers (and don’t warn you): “1derful” might be an answer, crossed with “every1.” But most American puzzles are just “match the definition.” ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/27 "2011-05-25T19:53:51Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Actually, the daily NYT puzzles are still pretty good. The key is the day: Monday’s is easiest, with the simplest theme. Friday’s is a bear, often with no short words in the entire puzzle. > > Sometimes they’ll run puzzles that don’t include letters, but rather symbols or numbers (and don’t warn you): “1derful” might be an answer, crossed with “every1.” > > But most American puzzles are just “match the definition.” I used to do the daily ones at work. I got tired of the making up of words which is inevitable where every letter has to be part of two answers I guess. Back when I lived in Blighty, I was incapable of starting the day without the Torygraph crossword. It made for an expensive habit because I had to buy the Torygraph for the sports & crossword, and the Grauniad for the news. I even tried setting a few cryptic crosswords and it is bloody difficult. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/28 "2011-05-25T19:54:14Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What the heck else would it be? That question mark is a dead giveaway. > > I think I did the crossword this past Sunday and that clue didn’t jump out at me as particularly tricky. Yeah, that’s a pretty easy one. It just seems the OP is unfamiliar with some of the NYTimes crossword conventions. The question mark is indeed the giveaway to immediately think of other ways of reading the clue, that it’s trying to jerk you around a little. I personally have no problem with the clue as written. Anyhow, the more of these you do (like in cryptics, although I prefer a good NYTimes puzzle to a cryptic), the more you get tuned in to the types of clues and to know when to be suspicious of clues or think for non-primary meanings of words. They do a lot of the latter in the NYT. And if you’re doing a Thursday puzzle, you have to be aware of “rebus” puzzles, where numbers or symbols or simply multiple letters can fill in certain squares. Thursdays are usually the goofy puzzles during the week. Rebus puzzles, however, have also been occasionally spotted on other days, but Thursday is typically when they appear. NYTimes puzzles rock. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/29 "2011-05-25T19:57:26Z")
> [@Philliam](#): > > Agreed. I started doing the cryptic’s years ago when I worked overseas with primarily British crews and the only crosswords available were cut out of any newspapers that could be found (usually The Times, Daily Telegraph, Guardian or Observer). I love the Penguin Series of Daily Telegraph or Times puzzles and always take a couple of the books along when travelling. I never liked the Times one. It was always a little too literary for me. Back in the glory days of being a student when I could lounge around in the JCR all day, I’d to the Telegraph first, then the Guardian, then the FT, then the Indy, and only turn to the Times if I the bar wasn’t open yet. Like anything, they are all about practice. I loved getting to know the different compilers and their quirks - the Guardian would put there names on them, so you would after a while know if it was going to be heavy on anagrams etc. The Telegraph had a pretty set rotation, but it would be a pleasant surprise to find someone setting a puzzle out of cycle. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/30 "2011-05-25T20:02:36Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I used to do the daily ones at work. I got tired of the making up of words which is inevitable where every letter has to be part of two answers I guess. The NYTimes is pretty good at avoiding crosswordese. There are a handful of standard clues that seem to show up often (like ETUI), but they’re pretty good at avoiding at the standard crosswordese that plagues poorly made puzzles. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/31 "2011-05-25T20:04:34Z")
That’s fair. I am more than happy to admit that the NYT has the best of the “US style” puzzles. I’d just rather do the worst cryptic puzzle, let’s say the Sun’s two-clue per answer puzzle than the best US style one. It’s a personal preference thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/32 "2011-05-25T20:35:52Z")
As my user name indicates, I am a bit of a fan of cryptic crosswords, although to be honest the only ones I do these days are the “thematic” or “variety” ones, that have some kind of twist to them. I can’t really be bothered any more with puzzles that are just a grid and a load of clues. I quite like the NYT puzzles. As others have said, they are mildly cryptic. There is a nice type of clue in British-style puzzles known as the cryptic definition, which eschews the usual anagram/reversal/etc. wordplay and just indicates the answer in a deceptive way. Many of the NYT clues are a bit like that, although somewhat pithier. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/33 "2011-05-25T20:57:33Z")
I have to say, “strap” was the first thing I thought of given the question mark. OTOH I am a veteran NY Times crossword solver; typically I’m 100% likely to complete the puzzle for any day earlier than Thursday; 95% for Thursday; 85% for Friday and around 70% for Saturday and 85% for Sunday. So I’ve learned to think like them. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/34 "2011-05-25T21:01:25Z")
BTW, Sunday and Thursday are most commonly the days you’ll find the non-letter clues thing, like where a “\*” could be used to stand in for the four-letter combo STAR, or shapes standing in for the word for that shape (e.g., “TIMES[square]” in one direction and [square]ONE" in the other, and then elsewhere “FAMILY[circle]” paired with TRAFFIC[circle]"). I’ve seen it on other days but it’s far more likely for Sunday and Thursday. Just in case that would get your goat, prepare your goat to be gotten. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/35 "2011-05-25T22:38:27Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > I do the crosswords online through an iPad app. This was the Sunday, May 1 puzzle. You’re giving away information about a puzzle that some of us haven’t gotten yet? Off with your head! > [@Philliam](#): > > Agreed. I started doing the cryptic’s years ago when I worked overseas with primarily British crews and the only crosswords available were cut out of any newspapers that could be found (usually The Times, Daily Telegraph, Guardian or Observer). I love the Penguin Series of Daily Telegraph or Times puzzles and always take a couple of the books along when travelling. > > The best (and most frustrating of the Series’) are the books that contain the Regional and National ‘prize’ puzzles from competitions, along with the percentage of competitors who completed each puzzle within the required time. As an American, I am amazed if I can solve a competition puzzle in a few hours, let alone inside 30 minutes. “A few hours”? I used to be happy that _The Atlantic_ only came out monthly. And, sadly, it doesn’t even have the Puzzler any more. Were they really losing that much money on it? I’ll do the ones from _Harper’s_ now and then, but it’s just not the same. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/36 "2011-05-26T14:58:22Z")
Here is my take on the NYT puzzles that make use of symbols, numbers, or multiple-letters-in-a-single-square oddities: They are a royal pain in the ass until the moment you catch on; once you get it, though, you enjoy this tremendous smug-yet-very-fun feeling deep in your soul. At least for awhile. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/37 "2011-05-26T16:26:03Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > Great, now I feel like a jerk with OCD. Really, I don’t have to solve clues in any particular order, but I do tend to start with 1 Across, and it’s nice to at least have a fighting chance of getting a foothold. Sorry about omitting the letter count though. Bad move. Constructors are on to you, and often make the 1 across section harder than average for the puzzle. The bottom right is typically easier than the top left. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/38 "2011-05-26T16:28:36Z")
> [@Philliam](#): > > Agreed. I started doing the cryptic’s years ago when I worked overseas with primarily British crews and the only crosswords available were cut out of any newspapers that could be found (usually The Times, Daily Telegraph, Guardian or Observer). I love the Penguin Series of Daily Telegraph or Times puzzles and always take a couple of the books along when travelling. > > The best (and most frustrating of the Series’) are the books that contain the Regional and National ‘prize’ puzzles from competitions, along with the percentage of competitors who completed each puzzle within the required time. As an American, I am amazed if I can solve a competition puzzle in a few hours, let alone inside 30 minutes. The problem with British cryptics is that they assume familiarity with football and rugby teams that I just don’t have. American cryptics are much better in that regard. Puns and Anagrams, which used to run every two weeks but which now run every few months in the Sunday Times, are a nice halfway point between regular puzzles and cryptics. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/39 "2011-05-26T16:38:52Z")
> [@jasonh300](#): > > Just looking at the little tooltip preview in the thread listing, I immediately thought “clasp”. I was on the right track. > > This doesn’t seem like a particularly difficult crossword clue. Huh? The fact that there have been three different answers that all fit is the hallmark of a bad clue. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084/40 "2011-05-26T16:44:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Huh? The fact that there have been three different answers that all fit is the hallmark of a bad clue. Actually that to me makes it the hallmark of a good clue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-new-york-times-sunday-crossword/583084.md?page=3)