# I pit the Obama Justice Department **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221 "2009-02-10T15:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/1 "2009-02-10T15:47:32Z")
> [@](#): > > During the campaign, Mr. Obama harshly criticized the Bush administration’s treatment of detainees, and he has broken with that administration on questions like whether to keep open the prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. But a government lawyer, Douglas N. Letter, made the same state-secrets argument on Monday, startling several judges on the panel of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. > > “Is there anything material that has happened” that might have caused the Justice Department to shift its views, asked Judge Mary M. Schroeder, an appointee of President Jimmy Carter, coyly referring to the recent election. > > “No, your honor,” Mr. Letter replied. > > “The change in administration has no bearing?” she asked. > > “No, your honor,” he said once more. The position he was taking in court on behalf of the government had been “thoroughly vetted with the appropriate officials within the new administration,” and “these are the authorized positions,” he said. Source: [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/10torture.html?hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/10torture.html?hp) I was truly hoping that, whatever other concessions to reality and politics and the sausage factory that is government took place, the Obama admin would at least roll back the worst of the Bush admin’s extensions of executive privilege. So much for openness and transparency. Apparently it holds unless someone outside the Administration wants to take a look at anything actually important. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/2 "2009-02-10T16:08:26Z")
[So it goes.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=455418) > [@](#): > > Yet even if the victor of the 2008 presidential election declines to make use of the aggrandized executive power established by the Bush-Cheney administration, in the long run such forbearance might make little difference. The accretion of presidential power, history has shown, often acts like a one-way rachet: It can be increased far more easily than it can be reduced. The annals of American history are now filled with precedents in which the White House has claimed the power to bypass laws and then acted upon that claim, especially in matters of national security. The zone of secrecy surrounding the executive branch has been dramatically widened. The Supreme Court has been sharply tilted toward a sympathetic view of executive power, and the White House’s political control of the permanent government has been dramatically expanded. The federal statute books are now riddled with asterisks, thanks to the explosive growth of signing statements, which have made it clear that a president can routinely sign legislation while declaring himself free to ignore sections that restrain his own powers – a dramatic change that has the potential to take away from Congress its constitutional right to override a president’s decision to reject a new law. > > The expansive presidential powers claimed and exercised by the Bush-Cheney White House are now an immutable part of American history – not controversies, but facts. The importance of such precedents is difficult to overstate. As Supreme Court justice Robert Jackson once warned, any new claim of executive power, once validated into precedent, “lies about like a loaded weapon ready for the hand of any authority that can bring forward a plausible claim of urgent need. Every repetition imbeds that principle more deeply in our law and thinking and expands it to new purposes.” > > Sooner or later, there will always be another urgent need. – [_Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency and the Subversion of American Democracy,_](http://www.amazon.com/Takeover-Imperial-Presidency-Subversion-Democracy/dp/0316118044) by Charlie Savage ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/3 "2009-02-10T17:28:57Z")
And this surprises you how? What’s next, using fear to push through legislation? Oh, no, wait… currently happening. “If we don’t pass this bloated, pork laden spending bill then… then… won’t somebody think of the children!!!” How about using a national crisis to curtail personal liberties? Oh, hang on… currently happening. Using the current economic crisis as justification to try to impose salary caps on private individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/4 "2009-02-10T17:30:23Z")
Or, you could read the whole article: > [@](#): > > But Mr. Letter said that the lower court judge, James Ware, did receive classified information and came to the correct conclusion in dismissing the case last year. He urged the judges to pore over the same material, and predicted “you will understand precisely, as Judge Ware did, why this case can’t be litigated.” The “state secrets” policy which so outraged the courts was Bush’s refusal to allow courts to decide – that doesn’t seem to be the position here. The rendition program stinks, and I hope it’s gone forever, and I hope something can be done to make it right for its victims – but that doesn’t necessarily mean handing over legitimately classified information to the plaintiff’s attorneys (which I think is the actual sticking point). If there is some more reliable source which reveals that the case for dismissal itself is merely state secrecy, then that’s another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/5 "2009-02-10T17:49:12Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > How about using a national crisis to curtail personal liberties? Oh, hang on… currently happening. Using the current economic crisis as justification to try to impose salary caps on private individuals. Won’t somebody think of the millionaires!! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/6 "2009-02-10T18:40:50Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Won’t somebody think of the millionaires!! BAH!! We must overthrow the evil bourgeoisie and redistribute the wealth to the proletariat!! Oh, wait… that’s happening too. My God but some of you people are fucking blind. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/7 "2009-02-10T18:46:20Z")
Would you like some cheese with your whine? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/8 "2009-02-10T19:18:22Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > BAH!! We must overthrow the evil bourgeoisie and redistribute the wealth to the proletariat!! > > Oh, wait… that’s happening too. > > My God but some of you people are fucking blind. Some of us aren’t blind. We just like the idea. To some degree, anyway. You have to admit, articles like the New York Times has been running about how hard it is for CEOs to live on $500,000 a year make probably most of us kind of raise an eyebrow or two. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/9 "2009-02-10T19:21:48Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Would you like some cheese with your whine? No thanks. How about a well though out rebuttal, instead of a cheap snark? Of course, if you’re unable (as I suspect) then cheese’ll be just fine. Cheese made in America, please. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/10 "2009-02-10T19:23:13Z")
A well thought out rebuttal to, “My God but some of you people are fucking blind.” Okay. I’ll give it a shot. Suck my dick. How’s that? ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/11 "2009-02-10T19:29:17Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > No thanks. How about a well though out rebuttal, instead of a cheap snark? > > Of course, if you’re unable (as I suspect) then cheese’ll be just fine. Cheese made in America, please. Thanks. Do you prefer Velveeta or Cheez Whiz? Also, would you mind if I brought along a tiny violin so I can play “My Heart Bleeds for You” for the CEOs who now have to get by on bonuses of “only” $500,000? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/12 "2009-02-10T19:32:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Some of us aren’t blind. We just like the idea. > > To some degree, anyway. > > You have to admit, articles like the New York Times has been running about how hard it is for CEOs to live on $500,000 a year make probably most of us kind of raise an eyebrow or two. Thanks for the reply **jayjay**. It’s the “to some degree” that worries me. Yes, I’m going with the slippery slope argument. If we cap those, why not others? One way to manage the cost of healthcare would be to cap the salaries of medical professionals. Being a doctor isn’t the path to wealth it once was, but the average cardiologist earns easily $200,000+ (cite = Google “cardiologist salary”). If the government is going to get into the healthcare business, and it looks like it is, why not cap the salary of doctors (and nurses, and drug researchers, and…)? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/13 "2009-02-10T19:33:50Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > A well thought out rebuttal to, “My God but some of you people are fucking blind.” > > Okay. I’ll give it a shot. > > Suck my dick. > > How’s that? Poor. Very poor. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/14 "2009-02-10T19:37:03Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Do you prefer Velveeta or Cheez Whiz? > > Also, would you mind if I brought along a tiny violin so I can play “My Heart Bleeds for You” for the CEOs who now have to get by on bonuses of “only” $500,000? Ahhhh… your ignorance is showing. “Cheese made in America” and “American cheese” are two different things. No, really, it’s true. Look it up. And don’t both with the music. If you don’t know the difference between American cheese and a nice sharp Wisconsin cheddar you’d also probably mistake a kazoo for a tiny violin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/15 "2009-02-10T19:43:57Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > BAH!! We must overthrow the evil bourgeoisie and redistribute the wealth to the proletariat!! > > Oh, wait… that’s happening too. :rolleyes: **IF ONLY!** ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/16 "2009-02-10T19:44:27Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > It’s the “to some degree” that worries me. Yes, I’m going with the slippery slope argument. If we cap those, why not others? One way to manage the cost of healthcare would be to cap the salaries of medical professionals. Being a doctor isn’t the path to wealth it once was, but the average cardiologist earns easily $200,000+ (cite = Google “cardiologist salary”). If the government is going to get into the healthcare business, and it looks like it is, why not cap the salary of doctors (and nurses, and drug researchers, and…)? a) The government is not “going to get into the healthcare business” in a way that is even remotely analogous to the financial bailout. b) I have zero objections to limits on how much TAXPAYER money is available to the heads of failing businesses. Let’s all remember that those businesses are failing \*because of \*the people who are now seeing caps on how much they can receive. Boo hoo. Also, the caps are not being placed on lots of the businesses that have received bailout money, and there are enough loopholes in the cap that I can’t say with much confidence that it will be applied as broadly as I’d like. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/17 "2009-02-10T19:45:05Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Cheese made in America, please. Thanks. Sorry, I’m afraid the cat’s eaten it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/18 "2009-02-10T19:45:45Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Or, you could read the whole article: > The “state secrets” policy which so outraged the courts was Bush’s refusal to allow courts to decide – that doesn’t seem to be the position here. The rendition program stinks, and I hope it’s gone forever, and I hope something can be done to make it right for its victims – but that doesn’t necessarily mean handing over legitimately classified information to the plaintiff’s attorneys (which I think is the actual sticking point). If there is some more reliable source which reveals that the case for dismissal itself is merely state secrecy, then that’s another matter. I think it’s a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation. The Bush administration did so much to destroy the credibility of the Executive Branch that even the proper execution of long used Presidential prerogatives and powers will be suspect. Whether it is state secrets, executive privilege, detainees, military commissions, or any of the other executive powers; the use of them by Obama will come under (rightfully so) strict scrutiny. There is a proper place for some of these things, but it’s getting really hard to tell use from abuse of these powers. Me? I’m gonna cut Obama and Judge Ware some slack. But only a little. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/19 "2009-02-10T19:46:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > It’s the “to some degree” that worries me. Yes, I’m going with the slippery slope argument. If we cap those, why not others? Say, come to think of it . . . 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221/20 "2009-02-10T19:59:42Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > a) The government is not “going to get into the healthcare business” in a way that is even remotely analogous to the financial bailout. Agreed. I’m afraid they are trying to regulate the whole thing lock, stock, & barrel. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-obama-justice-department/485221.md?page=2)